Todd's Indy Jacket

[Ragingblues]

Todd,

Welcome to the Lounge and thanks for adding us to your busy schedule. The jacket looks great so far, and I know you will nail down all the little details and come up with something great. You always provide quality items for a great price, and your reputation for backing them up is top notch.

We look foward to seeing the finished jackets!

Ken

[IndyBlues]

Look at the placement of the LC jacket pockets. They are pretty far from the zipper, aren't they. I always thought the pockets were closer on all 3 film jackets.
'Blues

[todd]

Thanks for the welcome!

Sizes: Long and short sizes might be in the future...I'll have to see how they go. Possibly on a special order basis, meaning that I'll order them when I place orders with the factory. I don't know yet.

Swatches: I've requested them, and I'll let you know when they're available. John, I'll just send you one as soon as I get them. Just remind me if you don't hear anything for a while.

Todd

[Connecticut Jones]

Nice!!.. you put a long size in there... you got my order pal!
( considering of course... that the price goes no higher.)

[pitfallharry]

Todd,

It's great to have you here as well. Welcome to the Lounge.

I'm sure your busy so feel free to stop by whenever you can. I look forward to seeing and learning more about the jacket.

It's always nice to have another option available as far as gear goes and having one here stateside is always a plus.

Maybe down the road after I acquire a few more things I'll look into getting a second jacket and yours will definitely be at the top of the list. I look forward to seeing G-Mann's once he gets his.

Thanks again for all the wonderful stuff you've already supplied us "Gear Heads" with. Your a pleasure to do business with.

[Kt. Templar]

I posted the following on COW I've decided to repost it here as some of you don't go there.

I personally am not comfortable with the idea of this jacket and I'm going to state something that might make me unpopular here but here goes.

I believe the pattern copyright, the pleats/straps/cargo pockets/no knit on cuffs and hem belong to him, he was the person to bring those elements together.

Taken at face value, the simple legal point is: you cannot "copyright a piece of clothing". But you can "Pass off" the product as another persons work by making it so close as to be confusing to the consumer and thus taking the sale.

The example given in the wiki I posted doesn't fit exactly but you will see the point: Jif lemon sell their lemon juice in that famous plastic lemon, when another company sold their juice in another platsic lemon they were found guilty of passing off their product as Jif's and thus liable to pay damages for lost revenue.

Todd I'm sure you are a great craftsman, I know you have many loyal customers here and I know you are doing this because you want to produce something you feel is screen accurate. I have never bought anything from you, it's not personal I just never have, I do have a couple of web belts of yours that another member kindly bought for me and they are great, you've carved youself a nice niche with the products you sell and your gloves are great.

Would it not have been possible to work with Peter to make his jackets more "screen accurate" and selling those. In a similar way you sell repro MK VIIs or the HJ's.

Peter is someone I've come to be friendly with I've chatted to and visited him a few times over the last year and a half or so. He is a great friend of this board and also has many loyal customers here.

I was talking with him the other day, he's been busy working on a film project, I suspect too busy to look in here. And you know what? I couldn't bring myself to bring up the subject of your jacket with him, I know he would be hurt. I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news.

The flipside of this is: "Peter makes replicas of other film jackets", yes he does... but he takes steps to make them significantly different to the screen versions, an extra seam here, a different closure there. And he is very careful to clearly state if he made the original or if he is making a look alike.

He also sells to a completely different section of the market to some of the jackets he makes. His "WOW replica" jacket is a inexpensive alternative to the Belstaff licensed version for instance.

Todds jacket is being sold in the same price bracket at Wested, if in fact he sold at the same price as G&B for instance I probably wouldn't mind so much. Or even if it were $100 cheaper. Perhaps I'm strange.

I don't mind the G&B as it came at the time it did and for the reasons it did and it is a replica of a screen used jacket. I don't mind the US Wings because they have historical value being decended from the Cooper.

We've always said, he's brought us the Indy jacket, he made the original and he really charges us far less than he could or perhaps should.

This appears, to me, to be an unseeming way to treat one of our favourite vendors.

Just my gut feeling, sorry for rambling.

[pitfallharry]

So Kt your problem is not with the jacket's style persay but that Todd is trying to sell screen accurate jackets which would mean he's copying the jackets Peter made at Wested, correct?

So how is this different than what anyone else has done? For instance Fedora made the AB to look like the hat Indy wore in Raiders. Indy's hat in Raiders was made by HJ......so basically Fedora copied the HJ hat or the version HJ had sold to Spielberg and Ford at the time. Every whip maker I've seen has duplicated the look of the Morgan whips right down to the knot because that's what Indy used in the film.

I understand you don't want to see Peter get shafted on this and I agree with everything you've said about him. I just can't see how what Todd is doing is different than what anyone in any other "gear category" has done or continues to do.

Is it right? I'm not sure......trademarks and copyrights are very complicated and I'd say a judge would have to decide that. Of course if everybody started suing everyone none of us would have a thing.....

I do appreciate that you spoke your mind though. I think that takes a lot of guts. I'm not sure I totally agree with you but at least your not afraid to speak up.

As far as competition goes I don't think Wested has a thing to worry about. There's enough room on the market for everyone.

[Ragingblues]

Flightsuits / Gibson & Barnes have been making the Indy jacket for many years, and quite a few people believe them to be superior to the Wested in craftsmanship and accuracy.

U.S. Wings has been making them for quite a while as well, though not usually regarded as the most accurate in every detail.

Ken

[Kt. Templar]

admin said:

Flightsuits / Gibson & Barnes have been making the Indy jacket for many years, and quite a few people believe them to be superior to the Wested in craftsmanship and accuracy.

U.S. Wings has been making them for quite a while as well, though not usually regarded as the most accurate in every detail.

Ken

I covered both those jackets but the specifics of both of those to me are:

I've never seen a G&B in the flesh, they seem to be a good jacket, they are also built very sturdily, they are modelled after a stunt jacket and there's nothing wrong with that. At their price point and with their fit and finish they do not look like Indy's jacket they are over engineered and do not directly compete with Wested they are the bling bling version, a sanitised version. The G&B came about before Peter was seriously supplying jackets to the public around the time of the Keppler jacket.

The US Wings are the direct line from the Cooper jackets licensed by Lucasfilm, they are not that accurate but they are also not too expensive. They have some provenace of being a previously licensed product but no one takes them that seriously.

[Ragingblues]

I don't own a Flightsuits / G & B jacket, but the photos I have seen of them (mainly G-Mann's) are quite nice. They are everything people try to modify their Wested's to be, in terms of accuracy. Check out any of G-Mann's jacket photos to see them in action, and not on a hanger. He has 6 Indy jackets I think, and very much prefers his G & B ones.

I love my Wested, and honestly don't care about such accuracy details. But, the G & B jackets are actually the most screen accurate ones available today.

Ken

[pitfallharry]

So if it's not a direct "screen accurate" copy of the Indy jacket then it's not a threat to Wested?

So basically Todd shouldn't try to continue with the jacket and just forget selling one?

[Kt. Templar]

pitfallharry said:

So Kt your problem is not with the jacket's style persay but that Todd is trying to sell screen accurate jackets which would mean he's copying the jackets Peter made at Wested, correct?

So how is this different than what anyone else has done? For instance Fedora made the AB to look like the hat Indy wore in Raiders. Indy's hat in Raiders was made by HJ......so basically Fedora copied the HJ hat or the version HJ had sold to Spielberg and Ford at the time. Every whip maker I've seen has duplicated the look of the Morgan whips right down to the knot because that's what Indy used in the film.

I understand you don't want to see Peter get shafted on this and I agree with everything you've said about him. I just can't see how what Todd is doing is different than what anyone in any other "gear category" has done or continues to do.

Is it right? I'm not sure......trademarks and copyrights are very complicated and I'd say a judge would have to decide that. Of course if everybody started suing everyone none of us would have a thing.....

I do appreciate that you spoke your mind though. I think that takes a lot of guts. I'm not sure I totally agree with you but at least your not afraid to speak up.

As far as competition goes I don't think Wested has a thing to worry about. There's enough room on the market for everyone.

My problem is with Todd saying he can do better, there is a subtext here that infers that somehow a Wested is inferior or shoddily made. And attempting to muscle in on his segment of the market. In prop circles he would be called a recaster.

There is a difference with some of the other items let me explain my (perhaps flawed) thinking.

AB and the Poet, SAB no longer have the right felt, block or inclination to supply a reasonable hat to the fans they have also priced themselves out of the market. Fedora is producing an fine high qulity hand crafted replacement, because the original is essentially no longer made. Essentially the bloodline has been broken.

MBA Shirts and Trousers, Noel Howard went bust plain and simple. The reminants of his company were sold to Hand and Lock they overpriced then discontinued the products. The line was also broken, Wested, amongst others have stepped in whilst he was away. Noel is now back, I am not sure of the exact reasons why he came back after so long but that's his choice, but back into the market he had dropped. And to cap it all the shirt was designed by this Domtakis fellow who has no interest in making the shirts so that line is broken too.

No one lays claim to the belts holsters or MKVii unless that's also Noel and the same reason stands.

Whips, mmm that's a difficult one, A morgan is a morgan is a morgan. He charges a great deal for one. Most of the others are also in different price brackets you really have to want a Morgan to buy one.

My greatest fear is that Peter will just say, sod it. I know he has immense problems sourcing the correct leather, sliders, zippers that we all demand. The UK leather industry has disappeared, he now get's his leather from Italy.

YKK the suppliers of his zips came to the UK, killed off all the local zip makers (including the makers of the famous aluminium zip) and have now left the UK market. He now has to source his zips from abroad. His trimming suppliers – the people who sell sliders and snaps, a year ago there were 4 suppliers he used now there is one.

[Kt. Templar]

pitfallharry said:

So if it's not a direct "screen accurate" copy of the Indy jacket then it's not a threat to Wested?

So basically Todd shouldn't try to continue with the jacket and just forget selling one?

I'm saying both G&B and US Wings jackets have their place in history, there is no reason they should not continue to be made.

Todd has put a lot of time and effort into this jacket, It would be unfair to suggest he stop now. I just think that perhaps he should not have moved into this part of the market that's all. Out of respect if nothing else.

He was doing a good trade with the other items he was making and not stepping on anyones toes.

[Deleted]

kttemplar said:

I've never seen a G&B in the flesh, they seem to be a good jacket, they are also built very sturdily, they are modelled after a stunt jacket and there's nothing wrong with that. At their price point and with their fit and finish they do not look like Indy's jacket they are over engineered and do not directly compete with Wested they are the bling bling version, a sanitised version. The G&B came about before Peter was seriously supplying jackets to the public around the time of the Keppler jacket.

Here I have to disagree, I think my G&B Jackets Look and fit more screen accurate than my Wested. Especially the action pleats.

Cheers,
G-MANN

[Ragingblues]

I'm in full support of Todd making his jacket, as I think more competition makes a better product. The more price points, leather finishes, and choices we have... the better for the hobby.

Magnoli and Wested both rip off Noel Howard's market with the shirts, but at a lower price point. The shirts aren't the same as the NH, but then again.... they cost less. That gives people a choice as to what is important to them. Again, I love Wested jackets... and have two of them, but I also think Todd is a heck of a nice fellow, and his jacket looks great to me too.

You can't copyright a clothing design, and Peter would have had to share such a thing with Deborah N. if there was such a thing. His patterns have changed over the years, partly from altering the design to be more practical, partly from the fact that several of the movie jackets were different from each anyway, and partly from remembering things incorrectly as time passed. No biggie, they are close enough for me, as I don't look anything like Indy anyway.

Ken

[Kt. Templar]

gmann said:

kttemplar said:

I've never seen a G&B in the flesh, they seem to be a good jacket, they are also built very sturdily, they are modelled after a stunt jacket and there's nothing wrong with that. At their price point and with their fit and finish they do not look like Indy's jacket they are over engineered and do not directly compete with Wested they are the bling bling version, a sanitised version. The G&B came about before Peter was seriously supplying jackets to the public around the time of the Keppler jacket.

Here I have to disagree, I think my G&B Jackets Look and fit more screen accurate than my Wested. Especially the action pleats.

Cheers,
G-MANN

Jon, I would not have you feel any other way, you are the expert on the G&B jackets.

best regards
KT

[pitfallharry]

Ok, I see where your coming from now. I didn't know a lot of what Peter was dealing with over there.

Yes, I too hope Peter doesn't throw in the towel one day either. There aren't to many vendors out there to begin with, especially ones that seem to care about the fans and offer great product at these prices, but.......Todd is a great vendor as well and I've done business with him more than once it's always been a pleasure.

I don't think Todd meant anything personal toward Peter and Wested when he said that. He was just saying that if he's going to do a jacket he's going to do one as close to what we saw in the film.

Wested offers "The Jacket" but even Peter has said they've made improvements to it over the years so it's not the same version that was made back in the 80's.

[Kt. Templar]

admin said:

I'm in full support of Todd making his jacket, as I think more competition makes a better product. The more price points, leather finishes, and choices we have... the better for the hobby.

Magnoli and Wested both rip off Noel Howard's market with the shirts, but at a lower price point. The shirts aren't the same as the NH, but then again.... they cost less. That gives people a choice as to what is important to them. Again, I love Wested jackets... and have two of them, but I also think Todd is a heck of a nice fellow, and his jacket looks great to me too.

You can't copyright a clothing design, and Peter would have had to share such a thing with Deborah N. if there was such a thing. His patterns have changed over the years, partly from altering the design to be more practical, partly from the fact that several of the movie jackets were different from each anyway, and partly from remembering things incorrectly as time passed. No biggie, they are close enough for me, as I don't look anything like Indy anyway.

Ken

Further up I sort of explain the Issues with the broken bloodline. At the time Wested took up making the shirt Noel was not in business.

Yes, the jacket has changed over the years though much of that was at the behest of the members on COW.

I also think the pattern used may actually be the TOD or LC jacket, if you look at the yoke on the TOD jacket it is eerily like the current Wested. (Although that one might be one of those infamous French jackets).

[Ragingblues]

Well one good thing will come of this for sure, John will be able to provide comparison photos of the following jackets:

Wested
G & B - Expedition (atleast 3 of them)
Todd's New Indy Jacket
US Wings
and a custom Indy jacket he had made many years ago

Did I miss any John?

Ken

[Deleted]

KT,

Expert ;D No. But thank you. Also this is just my preference and it could just be my body style and the types of Westeds that I have ordered. The G&B Jackets are off the rack and just seem to fit a little better. Ken has the Dark Brown Lambskin ( Wested )that I sold him and I think he has done a Fantastic job making it look screen accurate, one of the top 5 that I have seen posted here and at COW.

I really do appreciate what Peter has done for everyone as well as G&B and U.S. Wings. However since Todd is jumping into the Market too I don't really see it as a bad thing. Especially if he gets it just right.

I think Peter will always keep enough of the Indy jacket business just because he is THE Man.

KEN,

You got it JUST RIGHT.

You want to try that with my Fedoras next ;D

Cheers,
G-MANN

[pitfallharry]

G-Mann's just storing up on gear in case the world comes to an end. Any of us that are left and lost our gear can come over and he can supply us with replacements! ;D

[Kt. Templar]

G-Mann, you have a US Wings? I must have missed that. Do you have any pics you can show us?

[Deleted]

KT,

Here are a few old pics from last winter. The US Wings are VERY Inconsistant. In both color and leather texture. Both were ordered within a month and they could not are almost nothing alike one another They claimed it was just a different batch of leather but GEEZ

US Wings left, Wested middle, Expedition right.



US Wings



US Wings



Cheers,
G-MANN

[indakin]

geez i hate not following threads for so long. Well I started wearing my wested again and started to want a lambskin version, and then i saw todds jacket. I think your prototype looks great todd. I understand peoples concerns for copyright and all, but im not going to jump in for either opinion.

I just hope everything works out with your jacket, because if the price is good enough i may be interested. But too like Pitfall, i bought the wested because its made by the origional creator, and the price is redicuolously cheap for a custom jacket.

[indianatone]

G-Mann, if you were stuck out hiking, camping, or somewhere adventurous and had only a US Wings to wear at the time, would you still feel it could hold up in the spirit of Indy? Or would you feel like it just wasn't the 'right' jacket?

As for the Todd's jacket, I think it looks good. I think the idea of putting this jacket in the mix is born from an attempt to fill a 'screen-accurate' void that still exists for the collectors or Indy Zealots who still are not getting what they see from the film with a Wested. But - there's some sense of great accomplishment when buying that Wested! Not only is it "the" original maker of the jacket, you can order the jacket and even customize it.

"I can get the Indy jacket I've always wanted? From the original maker? And change it to what works for me?" That's a feature that will surely keep Wested in business with these jackets as long as there are fans of it. The Wested price is also right. Peter could easily have turned this jacket out for $525.00 with the rep and history alone. But he hasn't. And the price for the jacket is very reasonable. (Extremely reasonable.) After all the others have hiked things up, Wested has kept the "customized" jacket very affordable for the fans over the years. (I think what may be hurting most at the moment are the minute errors or omissions on the requested specs that keep arising.) Though, I'm not sure how much of that is due to the way the orders are turned in from the online form.
My thinking is that you make it simple in the notes box. Outline the details and requested specs and you'll get your specs. I haven't had any problems with Wested except for sleeves. Although it was kind of a hassle, they did fix it and fixed it promptly.
I've also met Peter and Pam in person and they really are some nice, down to earth people. I have my two Westeds -two jacket rule in full effect - and am very happy with them.

An argument in favor of Todd's jacket is that he is making a "This covers the details of the jacket without having to spec it" jacket. You either look right in the jacket or you don't. (On these lines I think it's a nice approach; kind of like the NH shirt.) People can't mess it up (other than Todd, that is ;D) with requests to change things to look better for them but not necessarily right for the actual film jacket. He is going with an overall design and very much seems to be attempting to get a very, very close film version. This does take out some of the guess work when ordering the Indy jacket. It also has some elements that do seem to hit closer than a Wested. So the fact that it will be the same jacket, with the same hardware, with the same sizing, each time is good news. And it's nice that he's still tapping feedback for the last minute detailed corrections. Pricewise, people will pay it for that jacket, but it's still close enough to the Wested - and I'm okay with it not being absolutely identical to the film - that I will continue to buy Westeds.

That last sentence is probably why there won't be too much taken from Wested. If Todd lowered the jacket to $225-$250 the orders would probably triple. Right now, it's in the same price as the Wested which gives me no reason "not" to buy a Wested, really.