|
Post by whipless01 on Oct 30, 2011 20:39:09 GMT -5
Yes, I understand that Cury felt, the felt used for the Raiders fedora, was rabbit felt. Cury was said to be very durable but floppy.
I have heard great things about Beaver fedoras, and they are usually in the $300-600 price range. This is the best hat you can possibly get for your money.
Rabbit fedoras have a good rap too. They are a cheaper alternative to beaver and great all-around hats. They are usually in the $200-275 range. However most rabbit felts used today aren't as high-quality as Cury.
So, which is better for a Raiders fedora? Beaver or rabbit?
|
|
|
Post by jnicktem on Oct 30, 2011 21:13:21 GMT -5
What exactly are you asking? Are you asking if beaver or rabbit will be better to resemble the Raiders hat? Or which would be a better adventure hat like the Raiders hat was supposed to be?
|
|
|
Post by djdindy on Oct 31, 2011 2:45:53 GMT -5
Rabbit felt is what was used in Raiders - if you want SA then go for rabbit. Beaver tends to be more durable, keeps its shape better, and softer to the touch yet stiffer. If you're going to wear a hat every day then beavers your man. Costume piece then rabbit is great. Personally I like a nice floppy felt for a raiders hat and that works best with rabbit from what I've owned. Of course there are degrees of stiffness for both felts dependent on how much stiffener is put on the felt. My Schubert SoC is super floppy yet holds its bash- that's perfect for me
|
|
gunslinger
Map Folder
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
Posts: 41
|
Post by gunslinger on Oct 31, 2011 4:48:01 GMT -5
Rabbit 100% Personally I think the downsides of rabbit are WAY overstated and the virtues of beaver WAY overstated. Beaver felt just doesn't feel / look / behave like the Raiders HJ; onscreen or in your hands. I think people have been trained to think beaver is right for a Raiders, but it's 5 times harder to bash the right shape with beaver than rabbit. It just wants to be a kind of curvy helmet rather than hold any sharp lines properly. If you'd believe some hatters, you'd think that at the tiniest drop of moisture, a rabbit would shrivel up and die. Sure, Akubras aside, rabbit ain't what it used to be - its not as dense as it used to be pre 1980s. But the reality is, the only cone-shaped Indy hat I've had my hands on was a beaver felt in very highly regarded Indy hat brand. Yet, talking rabbit, I've had one of my customers fall into a lake (!) wearing one of my rabbit felt hats, get it drenched, and amazingly, it kept its block shape. Admittedly, I had upgraded the felt from a stock Christys but it's still rabbit. So long story short, not really a beaver fan, in case you couldn't tell.
|
|
|
Post by djdindy on Oct 31, 2011 5:59:18 GMT -5
Note of self : Kurt not a fan of beaver
|
|
|
Post by trdaggers on Oct 31, 2011 7:06:02 GMT -5
djdindy: Thanks for giving me a good morning laugh.
|
|
gunslinger
Map Folder
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
Posts: 41
|
Post by gunslinger on Oct 31, 2011 8:21:33 GMT -5
I'm sure Derek's heard it all before.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Oct 31, 2011 10:21:07 GMT -5
Im sorry but I disagree that the Raiders felt was high quality. If it was high quality ( and the hat was made well) it would not have buckled liked it did so easily.
|
|
fifthchamber
Treasure Seeker
"Damn....I thought that was closer..."
Posts: 454
|
Post by fifthchamber on Oct 31, 2011 21:06:39 GMT -5
I may be mistaken, but didn't the original come from a store that doesn't really MAKE hats, (in the way John or Steve do), but rather sells them? They may bash them, and help with sizing, but they weren't "custom made" hats at that time eh?
I'd agree with John...The Raiders hat doesn't seem especially high quality...It fits Indy, because Indy needed an "everyman" hat, but one that was shaped to stand out a touch..That's all right?
As far as the question goes, if you want SA, go rabbit.....John and Steve both have lovely rabbit felts and the styling is impeccable..Go with that...
As far as "toughness" goes, well...I passed out today at work (I'm diabetic), and trampled on my hat several times (Beaver, by John), and once I came too, the hat was looking like it had been eaten by a horse...Two minutes later it was back to it's original shape and only one small dust mark on the brim shows that it was abused at all...VERY tough hats...(Thanks John..Really cool to have a hat that bounces back after a hypo like I do!!)
|
|
|
Post by jnicktem on Oct 31, 2011 21:09:12 GMT -5
According to Mr. Swales, who worked at Herbet Johnson and made the hats for the film, he actually made the film hats by taking a hat that was close to what they wanted, and reblocking it and trimming the brim. I bet it was a rush job, and that is partly the reason why the Raiders hat looked like the way it did.
|
|
|
Post by jnicktem on Oct 31, 2011 21:10:45 GMT -5
Oh, and I agree with you Ben. My Penman Raiders in Beaver has been through sooo much abuse and it still looks brand new! It's amazing! I have had it for about a year and a half, and it has been stomped on, drenched, and rolled up in my back pocket and suitcase for extended periods of time. Each time it comes out of it like it is brand new!
|
|
fifthchamber
Treasure Seeker
"Damn....I thought that was closer..."
Posts: 454
|
Post by fifthchamber on Oct 31, 2011 22:05:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the check on that Nick...
So we'd be talking about a fairly bog-standard (although higher end) hat that was reshaped and blocked for Ford....Which does seem to support John's assertion that the hats weren't the "best" quality eh?
And yeah, this hat just paid for itself....I fell over and must have rolled over on it? Although I can't remember too well..But it was flattened to hell....But...It's all good now.
|
|
|
Post by jnicktem on Oct 31, 2011 22:11:02 GMT -5
The original hat was.... decent. Just decent. You can tell it was kind of made in a rush though. Just take a look at those stitches on the ribbon! Yikes!
Ben- I hope you are doing okay after that! But you don't have to worry about ruining the Penman... like John says himself, they are "Bulldog Tuff." Like I have said, my Penman Raiders in Beaver has been through a lot, and a lot of that was intentional. Looking at it now, you would never guess that it has been smashed so thoroughly so many times in its life.
|
|
fifthchamber
Treasure Seeker
"Damn....I thought that was closer..."
Posts: 454
|
Post by fifthchamber on Nov 1, 2011 7:02:44 GMT -5
Thanks Bruv... Yeah, I'm good...I usually am after a pass-out...Although the people who see it usually worry a lot more than me...(I've done it enough to know what "bad" really is..)...As long as I don't seize and bite my tongue or hit myself hard enough to hurt I'm usually pretty fine afterwards...
The hat too happily! I really rolled on it....I don't remember much of what happened..I hit the deck and I remember grabbing for it..But then I think I rolled onto it..Either way, it was flattened by something heavy..LOL...Right as rain as soon as I could see well enough to straighten it back up..A REAL relief, although not the way I'd recommend testing John's "Bulldog-tough" promise...Heh...
Thanks for saying that though mate..It's appreciated...
Warm regards..
|
|
gunslinger
Map Folder
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
Posts: 41
|
Post by gunslinger on Nov 1, 2011 8:47:42 GMT -5
John I'd have to disagree with your disagreement. I have numerous HJ's from both that Raiders time period, and from before. They're hardly bad felt, or anything other than a top end factory hat with ~beautiful~ felt. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. They were among a handful of top end hatters in England, who shared the same suppliers. I don't know what this obsession with beaver at the expense of all else is - must be some American thing. I think a great deal of it started with marketing many decades ago. After all, rule #1 is to differentiate! Anyway, guys, as for the screen hat - of course it can be made to buckle, look worn/saggy/etc. They have costumers that specialise in doing that! I've coaxed an ABD to do the same thing. The only thing it was lacking is the nuances that you really need to have rabbit to properly replicate. Throw in the crazy conditions on that shoot, plus the fact that they costumed so much "dirt" and "sweat" onto the hat and gave it a solid beating to ~look~ hammered, and of course you get what you see. I'm pretty sure the whole Swales reblocking story is a myth. So many people have been suckered in by complete garbage on COW that it's hard for the average punter to separate what is first hand testimony from third party embellishment. Those HJ vintage catalogue pics some of us have seen show pretty much that exact Raiders block shape, and some of us have that model hat. I'd put money that somewhere along the line someone has mistook "bashed" for "blocked". The hat wasn't made in a rush - the ~ribbon~ was tacked on in a rush.
|
|
|
Post by wheresabner71 on Nov 1, 2011 12:16:45 GMT -5
After getting a beaver felt fedora I genuinely feel that I won't ever buy another rabbit felt fedora again - mainly because the beaver felt is putting up with my terrible habit of putting the hat on and taking it off by the pinch 300 times better than any of my rabbit hats are. Also when there is a solid rain the beaver felt seems to dry in minutes.
While the rabbit felt is obviously more screen accurate as the original hat was rabbit I still prefer my beaver felt Penman over any other fedora I own.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Nov 1, 2011 12:26:53 GMT -5
gunslinger you have a lot of nerve saying that about me. Its my opinion based on how many different felts I have worked with. Try making more than a few hats before you say I am giving anything but my opinion.
I have put people on their ass for less.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Nov 1, 2011 12:32:25 GMT -5
The reason I think the felt was poor and the hat wasn't that great is for several reason. The tack down sticking showing, stretch marks on the brim from poor blocking and the felt buckled like it did. I have little doubt they went out of their way to do that. Steve and Marcs felt didn't buckle and they put those hat though a lot. Herd it first hand and they looked new.
I have nothing against rabbit felt. There are good quality rabbit felt.
I think the real question should be what felt for what block. different felt reacts differently on the same block.
I also think its doesn't make much sense trying to get an exact create fro every angle to your Raiders hat if you are going to be wearing it because the hat starts to take on a different shape depending on the person handling and wearing it.
If you just want a prop sitting on a shelf then yes but for the real world its just doesn't make much sense.
|
|
gunslinger
Map Folder
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
Posts: 41
|
Post by gunslinger on Nov 1, 2011 17:10:13 GMT -5
How quickly the mask falls. *
Isn't all of this stuff about opinion? *
What am I saying about you, John? Discussing as a way to ask you to justify your position? *
Or will asking these 3 questions of you result in more threats? *
I haven't even brought up why it took so long for the established hatters to get the block shape right of the Raiders replicas they had been selling people for YEARS, when it took me as a newbie all of a month to get a match. But I'm sure you're gonna threaten to jump on a plane to "put me on my ass" for mentioning that.*
*All personal opinion, of course.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Nov 1, 2011 18:10:03 GMT -5
When you accuse me of doing soming under handed like you did I'm going to get pissed. It's your opinion your block is SA. It looks good but it isn't all that.
You went to a thread of mine in COW and try and and say your junk ribbon is the same ass the true Indy ribbon. When it's not even close. You say you are a purest when it comes to a Indy hat. Then why don't the ribbon count to you.
I have seen your hats first hand. Try learning to sew a sweatband in correctly or spend some time learning how to make a hat correctly rather than working on making them look good in photo shop.
I never jumped into your thread or never said anything bad about you or your hats but you have done it twice and your right the gloves come off now.
You are a coward.
|
|
|
Post by djdindy on Nov 1, 2011 18:18:39 GMT -5
I have missed something here. Where did gunslinger criticise your hats in his original post John? He was making his opinion about beaver versus rabbit. I missed anything bad about your hats.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Nov 1, 2011 18:28:29 GMT -5
To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
|
|
gunslinger
Map Folder
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
Posts: 41
|
Post by gunslinger on Nov 2, 2011 2:22:57 GMT -5
Not entirely sure how I'm a coward. To speak my mind and opinions? Doesn't it make me... upfront & honest? Why can't someone disagree with you or not bow down to your vision of the Raiders hat? Especially when the views I was raising were on-topic?
For the record, I have never said anything bad about the quality of YOUR hats, John. From all accounts they are very well made. And when did I suggest anything "underhanded"?
You jump the gun at any discourse that doesn't fit with your view of the world of hats, and it is clearly vibing that for quite a while, you put yourself above even Herbert Johnson of the period themselves. Maybe that's even true. But it's not a Raiders hat, and that's all that I was trying to say quite broadly. To reiterate, all I was saying above is that obviously rabbit is THE correct felt for a Raiders and IMO anything else, including beaver is inappropriate. This is not debatable - it's a fact. To argue otherwise IS disineguous. Put aside your seeing red and your preference for beaver and surely you can see where I'm coming from?
Re the block, I did something no-one ever has then or since - put my money where my mouth is and did overlays to prove as much as possible that what I did was "truly" a Raiders-shaped hat, not an approximation. I did it in the toughest way possible, pretty much to the pixel from every angle. After a few attempts at nitpicking by yourself, I asked you to replicate what I had done using the same methods, but never heard back.
Re the ribbon, I said then, as I will say now that block shape and felt behavior is FAR more important than a ribbon whose differences can only be discerned under a microscope (in your own words IIRC). Or am I missing something? I have a bunch of the vintage cotton/rayon ribbon, and yes, it is different to work with - more stiff, and "skews" easier, but I've never had a single complaint about it. I find it just as bizarre someone would give a rat's about such ribbon details until the block's dead-on. But again, you clearly didn't want any discussion in that thread. It's like you were issuing a Press Release and got angry when a discussion broke out on a... discussion board(!)
Lastly, before you start inferring that my hats are somehow "Photoshopped", I have NEVER cheated the block in PS. It would be beside the point in my obsessive little quest. Also, the goal with me has never been to make money from any of my hats. The idea is laughable when my day job earns 10 times more per hour that it takes to finish an SoC or whatever. If I was ever torrented with orders, I would have hired someone to make them to spec. The very idea of sitting in a workshop building hats day in day out is enough to make me want to blow my brains out, and for your ability to do that I give you credit!
But for me, it's always been about getting the closest copy I could manage to the Raiders hat. I spent quite a bit of time doing this only because it was very clear that none of the hats on the market were close enough to my eye. Beyond that, I wanted to "do right" by this hat all of us love so much, and now I'm happy with my collection, etc. that just means trying to speak up when what's accepted as common knowledge seems to be drifting from facts. I'm sorry just talking about these things seems so confronting to you.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Nov 2, 2011 9:30:41 GMT -5
Do your homework. I offer rabbit felt and have never pushed a costumer to buy beaver felt or beaver. I even set up my prices so my profit was the same on both so it didn't matter to me who bought what.
You jumped into a thread about the Indy ribbon just to push your stuff. You had no biz in that thread.
I never stated I made the most SA raiders hat nor would I because it makes no sense to do it if you are going to wear it nor would I want to remake all the poor craftmenship either. it's really nice when you set up a hat for a shot over lay like you do but..... Your hat dont look so SA on a person and that's when it counts.
You and others have benefitted fro Steve Delks work just like I have. So let's not forget all the work that he set up for everyone after him.
I'm sick and tired of people taking cheap shots at me and I stand back and do nothing. It's stops now.
|
|
|
Post by bendingoak on Nov 2, 2011 9:33:46 GMT -5
disingenuous =not noble; unbecoming true honor or dignity; mean; unworthy; as, disingenuous conduct or schemes
|
|