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Post by dunleavy on Nov 2, 2011 13:26:24 GMT -5
Did a Mod delete gunslingers post somewhere? I'm not sure where he bashes John. No pun intended. I will agree with gunslinger when he implies the only part of the hat that was rushed was the ribbon. It makes sense. The people who were handling the hats could've been altering it and for shooting time reasons needed to make the adjustment on the fly with little to no time. This ties into the fact that the SoC hat is the most unique looking out of all the different scenes.
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Post by Ragingblues on Nov 2, 2011 15:07:21 GMT -5
Did a Mod delete gunslingers post somewhere? I'm not sure where he bashes John. No pun intended. No posts were edited or deleted during the making of this thread. No animals were harmed either, unless you count using the hides of rabbits and beavers/nutria used to make some of the hats mentioned above.  Ken |
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Post by djdindy on Nov 2, 2011 15:22:28 GMT -5
I missed any bashing of John as I said before. To some extent I see this as two different markets. Kurt makes wonderful hats if you're after what's on the screen in raiders (as does Jason - Fedoraraiders). John makes wonderful, practical, wear everyday hats in a variety of vintage styles. Personally, I really wanted a SoC replica fed. Kurt produced exactly what I wanted. I wouldn't wear it every day or even often but it's exactly what I wanted and it looks as good as any other fedora does on me. I also have a lovely AB rabbit raiders. I wouldn't wear this everyday either but it too is exactly what I wanted (a non distressed raiders type fed). Now, if I had the money and I wanted a hat to wear more often I'd buy one of johns Casablanca style hats. It'd suit me better than any raiders hat would. Different markets I think.
Clearly I'm no expert but a visual inspection of the ribbon on my Schubert and my AB - I can't see a difference. Similarly , the way the sweat bands are sown in looks the same to me. If I compare either to my old todds Uptowner there's an obvious difference.
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gunslinger
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Post by gunslinger on Nov 2, 2011 17:52:22 GMT -5
John, where above did I said you "push" beaver? I know you also sell rabbit hats. I think most people can re-read my words above to understand what I'm saying. I LOVE all the poor craftsmanship. It's all part of the hat we love; in the same way that the only jacket that replicates the fit is the Nowak ~because it's "wrong"~. I can't believe you're obviously still cut about me interacting in that ribbon thread! Yet merely weeks earlier, when Steve was casting aspertions about my offering and I defended myself, you jumped in like a maniac saying how dare I do so. Talk about a double-standard. It was a thread about ribbon in a forum, not a vendor's area. My hats look dead-on screen accurate on someone as long as they dont have too round a head. They look perfect on my head, and on many other people. When someone has told me that they have a round head I have let them know this. You are a true hatter and take that stuff into account. I don't, and have never claimed to. I focus on making the same hat that Ford wore, scaled up to someones size if necessary, and have it look the same. If someone hasn't got his head, it's not going to look like what he wore shape-wise anyway. People need to deal with the fact they are not Ford. The best many of us can hope for is some of his proportions!  Don't overlay your experience with Steve with mine. He is not God. The tiny bit of help I got from him was easily balanced by the way his online comments positiponed me in the market, purposeful or not. For the record, he gave some vague direction on block shape, but I threw that out pretty quick as it didn't fit my method of finding the right shape. With zero Indy people online I still would have arrived where I did because I came up with a method that worked, and I'm not afraid to own that. I never said you weren't "noble" - I wasn't expecting my words to be Googled for a dictionary definition. You know your preferences and they have always come through loud and clear. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. Neither is gearing your offering to a market, or differentiating based on what you see as strengths. But when you quietly slag off every good rabbit hat maker from Herbert Johnson to Akubra, you need to expect that someone is going to think you need to get your hand off it. ESPECIALLY when the point of a thread is about which felt makes an authentic Raiders hat. |
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Post by bendingoak on Nov 2, 2011 19:49:10 GMT -5
Don't use a word if you don't know the understanding of it.
Thread I'm talking about is the ribbon one where the person asked why is the Indy ribbon so hard to get and so expensive, you have n biz in that thread. You came in there to sell you ribbon and to slam the real deal.
You hat or
Block shape is a matter of opinion not fact.
I don't know where you get that I slammed rabbit felt all the time. Beaver felt is better hands down when it comes to quality. Fact but I sell a high quality rabbit felt and when people ask me which is more SA I say rabbit because it is but not better.
When people ask me what I think about the federation by akubra I say its a good quality hat and a good bang for the buck but it's not great or the best bang for the buck. People use great to damn much.
If you know what you are looking for you can clearly see signs that the raiders hat had blocking flaws to them but I'm not going to educate you on hat making.
If you ask me what was the best quality Indy hat I will say the Indy 4 hat hands down. Ask me which hat I can go back in time and snatch of fords head it would be the Raiders hat but I wouldn't wear it because it wouldn't last very long. It wasn't made to last just to look lived in and well traveled.
I never said I make the most SA accurate raiders hat. I always stated that I make a SA as possible hat that is well made and reall world. Made it so it can do all the things you see in the move and last a life time.
SA block can only be claimed if you have the exact felt that they used and that's not possible. Every felt reacts differently that why I have more than one Raiders block. One for rabbit and one for beaver.
I could make a more SA Raiders hat then what I do now but I never wanted to sacrifice quality, nor make a prop or costume hat. I want to make high end handmade/custom hats. I want to be a great hat maker not a costumer. Someone ask me for a prop like that I send them your way or the the other guy who called me one of the dictators. I never want to see one of my hats sitting on the self like a prop. I leave that up to others. I want my hats being worn.
The way the Raiders hat that seen on screen I see blocking mistakes, poor sewing of the sweatband, poor sewing of the ribbon. I dont see high qaulity felt on this hat.
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Post by bendingoak on Nov 2, 2011 19:54:15 GMT -5
I never said Steve is god but he deserve some damn respect.
ken, John
I'm sorry for dragging mud on the carpet and I'm done. I'm just tired of people take pop shots in the past and letting it slide. I know this is the one place I don't have to worry about holding my tounge. For that I am grateful and have a lot of respect for you two and I really feel bad for sling it. The one lace that will let say my peace without fear is the one place I didn't want to.
Again ken and John. Im sorry. Nuff said and I'm out of this thread.
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gunslinger
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Post by gunslinger on Nov 2, 2011 20:24:39 GMT -5
John, Everything in life is a matter of opinion, it's just a matter of degrees. Obviously you and I only share about half of the ones you note above. We could probably both sit here for weeks countering each other point by point but like you, I don't see the point.
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Post by Ragingblues on Nov 2, 2011 20:25:49 GMT -5
I never said Steve is god but he deserve some damn respect. ken, John I'm sorry for dragging mud on the carpet and I'm done. I'm just tired of people take pop shots in the past and letting it slide. I know this is the one place I don't have to worry about holding my tounge. For that I am grateful and have a lot of respect for you two and I really feel bad for sling it. The one lace that will let say my peace without fear is the one place I didn't want to. Again ken and John. Im sorry. Nuff said and I'm out of this thread. You're always welcome John, as is anyone... to say their piece around here. The only time we draw a line is when people begin name calling and getting nasty... which is usually what happens when people disagree online, sadly. I haven't noticed any of that going on here, so I'm keeping my nose out of it (where it belongs in the first place). Ken |
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Post by wheresabner71 on Nov 3, 2011 11:08:49 GMT -5
www.penmanhats.com/TOP quality craftsmanship, materials, attention to detail and above all customer service. That is all.
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gunslinger
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Post by gunslinger on Nov 3, 2011 23:42:22 GMT -5
Yeah mate, I can't imagine why someone would start calling some people "dictators" when freedom to voice one's opinions clearly doesn't result in a brawl. "Deja vu" is the same in French, right? ~slowly backs away~ |
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Post by bendingoak on Nov 4, 2011 1:33:10 GMT -5
Calling me disingenuous or a dictator and I'm suppose to say thank you?  You damn straight it's going to cause a brawl. I guess only you can insult someone. Try and photoshop your way out of this one. Ken and John I said I would stay out but I'm not taking this from anyone anymore. About to get ugly. |
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gunslinger
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Post by gunslinger on Nov 4, 2011 5:04:27 GMT -5
John, please read back through the thread and you will hopefully see that I was simply stating my opinion in good faith. I meant nothing more than to counter what you seemed to be inferring about HJ's. I didn't Google a dictionary definition to make sure I was using a word with all the permutations that may be inferred from it. Not that you were dis-honourable or anything like that.
I basically was trying to articulate something like "a bit silly".
I have HJ's from the 1940's, 1950's, one that's likely 1960's, another from 1978, and another one from 1982. I have also spoken to a past owner of the ACTUAL Raiders hat and got a sense of which era it was from. So when someone such as yourself comes in and says that it wasn't a high quality felt, I disagee for the reasons I stated above.
You also need to be clearer about your criteria. Because when one of my few experiences with a beaver hat (not by yourself but by another highly regarded Indy hatter) that I'm sure you would say IS a better hat than the Raiders hat, was an experience of a hat that DIDN'T stand up to the elements. I am going to state my opinion because your criteria and/or experience doesn't seem to be meshing in any way with mine.
Then you come in saying that you've knocked people on their arse for less. Very open minded of you. Then you wonder why numerous other people bond over a shared experience of your temper. You say someone called you a dictator, and after someone has threatened me after disagreeing with them about something as trivial in the world as the qualities of a third party hat or felt, of course I'm going to empathise.
I have no stake in anything other than wanting to feel free in expressing my opinion about old hats and felt vs. beaver ones, because that's the topic of the thread. Nothing more. You seem to be trying to infer that I have Photoshopped some aspect of my hat shape? I probably should be offended or something, but I don't really care. The people that bought them know that the shape is as I represented it.
As I've said before, from all accounts, you make great hats, and people could do much worse than buying hats from you or Steve or Garrison.
So again, seeing as one use of a word seems to be what set you on tilt, and if you honestly believe that I was inferring that you were being ~fraudulent~ in any way, even after I clarified my intent back earlier in the thread, I do of course sincerely apologise. If you re-read the thread above, you hopefully will see that wasn't my intention.
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Post by trdaggers on Nov 4, 2011 6:32:29 GMT -5
You both are nice guys and very knowledgeable. Maybe this should be discussed through PM to settle any differences that exsist.
I think if you were standing face to face this whole thing would be over in 5 minutes and you would be having a drink togeather.
Funny how the printed word can be taken so many ways.
Gailen David
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Post by whipless01 on Nov 4, 2011 7:10:40 GMT -5
I agree...I have no idea how this argument broke out...
(also, kurt, was the raiders hat owner's name screen used by any chance?)
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Post by Ragingblues on Nov 4, 2011 9:01:48 GMT -5
It seems the original point of this thread is a question based on preference and intended use of the hat itself. For example, are you planning to wear it daily/regularly? Are you likely to wear your fedora in the rain or snow as some people here do? Or will it be more of a costume piece or something you wear only a few times a year?
Beaver/Nutria is supposed to last longer than Rabit felt, which makes it a better choice for the everyday/harder use wearer. However, some people think it isn't as floppy as rabbit and prefer that felt's look and feel for getting the Indy look. I have seen fedoras made from both that look really close to the screen used ones, though not in person. I've had both, but never considered my attempts at shaping them to be very screen accurate. The again, I don't have the same shape head as Harrison Ford either.
I think most sensible people realize that the materials actually used in the movie costumes would not make the best purchase for real world use in some cases. That may not matter much, depending on your intended use. Personally, I would never choose wool pants, a felt hat, leather jacket, and smooth soled boots for exploring hot jungle temples.... but the outfit did look cool in the movie.
The choice is up to the individual, much like the leather jacket leather options. The movie ones might have been lambskin, but goatskin, horsehide, whatever, might wear better in the real world... and look better to the individual buying it. It's all up to you.
The other issues brewing in this thread seem to be cooling off now.... and I am only stating my opinion about the reasons you might pick one felt over the other. I just thought it was a good time to offer my two cents and possibly keep this thread from pulling apart at the seams.
Ken
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Post by bendingoak on Nov 4, 2011 9:31:47 GMT -5
Gunslinger. You either used a word wrong because you didn't know the meaning of it but reading everything before it and after makes it clear you do and that will get you put on your ass by me. I said it and I'm not taking that back. Then the dictator comment comes back once again. Pleas tell me you didn't know the meaning of that one?
I never stated that beaver was better for a more SA raiders hat. I always tell customers that if they want SA felt you must go the route of rabbit felt.
I was just stating from experience that the Raieders hat was not the super high quality hat that everyone think it is. Some things are great but that term is over used. There were thing made years ago that were great and they were not so great stuff. There were junk made back in the day. Just because it's old doesn't make it great.
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Post by trdaggers on Nov 4, 2011 10:31:40 GMT -5
John: I recently ordered a hat from you and you did talk me out of beaver in favor of the fur felt version (rabbit).
Gailen David
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Post by Mr. Fusion on Nov 4, 2011 11:12:26 GMT -5
I agree with most everything John has said. I also agree that for a costume hat, which is what many buy, rabbit is a better choice. For an everyday type wearer, I would recommend beaver. It's actually pretty simple. If you want a hat you can wear on a daily basis and want to last for a long time, John Penman is your man. If you want something you might wear two or three times a year, you have several more options. Personally, for my Raiders gear, I plan on getting a Garrison SOC rabbit. Then I'm hoping to save up a little more and get an Adventurebilt Henry from John with Raiders bash. That will serve as a more frequently worn hat. If I really want to go hat crazy (and I intend to) I'll get a grey Raiders "seaplane" beaver Penman. Some may prefer Penman, others AB, or Herbert Johnson, etc. In the end it comes down to what you like and think is best for you. Just be thankful we have so many options as Indy fans. Personally, I would never choose wool pants, a felt hat, leather jacket, and smooth soled boots for exploring hot jungle temples.... but the outfit did look cool in the movie. Ken, I agree 100%. Again, it all comes down to preference. -Josh |
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Post by trdaggers on Nov 4, 2011 11:19:52 GMT -5
Well put.
Gailen
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Post by deinonickus on Nov 4, 2011 13:05:00 GMT -5
Guys, I'm pretty sure it was leather.
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Post by whipless01 on Nov 4, 2011 16:04:03 GMT -5
I am working with a hatmaker on a Raiders fedora. I started this thread because I wanted to know which felt was closer in behavior to cury. I have my answer now. Thank you for your answers.
(probably shouldn't hane started it seeing as it caused an argument between 2 hatmakers)
Ken-yes yes and no.
deinonickus-please elaborate on your 'it'?
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gunslinger
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Post by gunslinger on Nov 4, 2011 17:02:06 GMT -5
John, it's clear we're never going to see eye to eye in print. If you ever come to Australia, let me know. We can arrange to have a beer and/or fistfight.
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Post by whipless01 on Nov 4, 2011 17:03:44 GMT -5
Kurt, was the Raiders hat owner's name screen used by any chance?
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gunslinger
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Post by gunslinger on Nov 4, 2011 17:40:15 GMT -5
Sending PM.
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Post by whipless01 on Nov 4, 2011 17:43:33 GMT -5
Replied to PM.
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