Raiders truck myth

[Havana]

I think we've all heard the story that the truck seen exploding at the end basket sequence is actually one of the trucks used in filming the great truck chase. I think someone connected with the production even said this, perhaps on the making of Raiders documentary. Recently, I've been studying the chase truck with the intention of building a scale model. This led me into looking at the red alley truck too. From this point for the purpose of clarity, I'm going to refer to three trucks: the chase truck, the alley truck, and the explosion truck. Here's my hypothesis. 1) The alley truck is in no way the same truck as the chase truck. 2) The truck seen actually turning over is the same truck as the alley truck. 3) The truck seen exploding from the rear is the same truck again or an identical one. All of this means that the chase truck appears no where in the alley/exploding truck sequence. Here's my evidence and reasoning. The truck in the alley scene and seen actually turning over has a different number of axles and wheel lugs from the chase truck. The alley truck very clearly has only two axles and features the very distinctive 8 lug wheel pattern seen on Opel and Mercedes trucks of the period. The chase truck has equally distinct WWII era GMC 6 lug pattern. It's also a heavier 3 axle truck. The visible chassis of the alley truck is totally different from that of the chase truck and appears significantly shorter. They could change the cabs and even change the wheels but would they shorten the chassis, change both the front and rear axles while eliminating the third axle all while shooting on an accelerated 4 week schedule in Tunesia? I seriously doubt it. Even with all the magic of Hollywood, I cannot accept that these two trucks are the same based on the visible evidence taken from the film itself. What about the truck that we actually see explode? It's only seen from the rear and only for a split second. Is it the alley truck that we clearly see turn over in the frontal shot or was one of the chase trucks substituted for whatever reason? Again, visual evidence seems to suggest that it is in fact the same truck (or an identical one) as seen in the alley. It has the same tailgate, canopy, and curved rear fender unique to the alley truck and different from the chase truck. That's certainly not conclusive because all of that could have been put on an overturned chase truck as dressing. Two things stand out in examining the explosion truck. First, it lacks the distinctive GMC style rear hitch placement that is seen on all WWII era GMC's and is clearing visible on the chase truck in a number of shots. Second, the explosion truck appears to have the same distinctive circular holes at the rear of the chassis as does the alley truck. These holes do not appear on GMC trucks of the period. Sure, I guess they could have been deliberately cut to match but why so much effort on a tiny detail that's only visible for a split second on screen. I welcome any feedback on this. If you disagree with my theory, please respond with your reasoning or better yet, visual evidence to the contrary. I'm not interested in the "so and so" said it's the same truck kind of arguments. I don't want this to be a gray hat/brown hat kind of thing. I'm basing this strictly by what's seen on screen or in production stills. It's just not the same truck. Am I wrong?

[Deleted]

Havana, great work my friend. What 3thoubucks has done for hats, you have done for trucks.

You know, you might just have something there about your theory. I'll keep an eye out next time I watch Raiders.

[pitfallharry]

I've always thought they used the same truck and they filmed the chase with it before the explosion. I think I even got that idea from something I heard someone say on one of those "Makin of..." segments for Raiders.

I don't know much about cars though so I can't really offer much in that regard but the pics you posted seem to prove your theory that there was more than one truck used.

Do you know if the truck or trucks used were bought from someone or were they pieced together by the production crew? If there was more than one truck I wonder where they sent the other one after filming?

[Havana]

But wait there's more. See my other post about the chase truck's possible fate. As you can probably tell, I've really been looking into this a lot. This all started with the idea of making a screen accurate model. I've looked a dozens of period photos of actual Mercedes trucks and the GMCs. The Raiders's chase trucks (there were 2) were certainly American GMC's dressed to look like the rare Mercedes LG63. They truly did an excellent job of recreating the Mercedes truck. The only thing that gives them away as copies are the overall proportions and the visible mechanical parts that are clearly GMC. The cab appears to be a real Mercedes cab. All of the little details are there that would take many, many man hours to recreate. It looks like most of the tell tale parts were salvaged from Mercedes trucks. The hood ornament was a dramatic addition that wouldn't have been on a period truck. The shift lever, pedals, steering wheel and dash board are all period GMC.

[Stefana Jones]

I've always thought they used the same truck and they filmed the chase with it before the explosion. I think I even got that idea from something I heard someone say on one of those "Makin of..." segments for Raiders.

What you heard is H-Ford in "Great movie stunts..." saying that the truck for the chase has been "...built from scratch, especially for the picture." He later says, after explaining and showing the alley stunt and explosion, "We've finally seen the last of our specially built five-ton truck". Suggesting that they used the same truck in both sequences.

[Deleted]

Havana,

What an amazing study of the truck you have done

Not being very Mechanically inclined I could never add anything of significance to this. I would like to know if you have managed to make a Model of the truck after your in depth study.

If so Please post pics of it as I am a modeling fan.

Cheers,
G-MANN

[Havana]

I'm just getting started on the model. I was heavily into model making in the past but haven't made one in quite a few years so I'll have to practice a little and brush up on my skills. I've been looking at basing the model on a WWII GMC just like the movie makers did. I would then loot Mercedes parts from various other models and some of it will have to be scratch built too. I'll definitely post when it's done but I think I'm looking at about a 4 or 5 week project. I don't want to rush it. I want to be sure make the best one I can. It'll be 1:35 scale.
I've always been fascinated by famous movie vehicles and the stories behind them. Someone actually tracked down the very first General Lee to a junk yard about 60 miles from my home. It had been sitting there for 25 years and still had the Warner Brothers property markings and everything. It was 100% authenticated and even as a rusted out wreck it sold for $30K on ebay. That kind of stuff just blows my mind. It's just like an old fashioned treasure hunt.

[Deleted]

Well I will be looking forward to seeing the model once it is finished.

Cheers,
G-MANN

[agent5]

I have to go with Stefana on this, but I love the theory.

[Havana]

Ford's 5 ton remark is truly cryptic. The chase truck was a 2.5 ton GMC CCKW dressed to look like a 3 ton Mercedes Benz LG63. There were some 5 ton trucks built during that era but not many. A 5 ton truck would have been bigger than the chase truck and much bigger than the alley truck. I kind of think Ford must have made that comment off the cuff. At any rate, I'm pretty certain the alley truck was a 2 ton wooden cab Opel Blitz.

[jweaver]

Good work Havana!!! The grill on the alley truck gives it away as an Opel.

I had never heard of this myth. It always seemed pretty obvious to me that they were two different trucks. Of course the gray/brown hat debate had never crossed my mind either.

[Capt. Zak]

Great investigation Havana. Case closed in my book.

[Bakersfield Jones]

I know this is a very old thread, but I thought I would jump on board. The truck that is in the entrance to Indiana Jones/Temple of the Forbidden Eye at Disneyland, is supposed to be the chase truck. I have looked it over a few times, and it seems right. I will be hitting the park again in a few weeks, and will take a lot of pics from all possible angles. That way people who are more knowledgeble than I can look it over and discuss it.



Scott
PS: I'm not sure, but the license plate numbers seem to match. Can anyone confirm?

[IndyBlues]

Gmann and I were JUST talking about this not too long ago. Havana, have you given any thought to modifying one of the new Hasbro Raiders trucks, and doing one of your amazing paint jobs on one? I would be more than happy to send one your way to experiment on.
Mike

[GCR]

Hey, this is a pretty cool thread! I wish I had been in on this discussion when this thread was first started, but unfortunately I wasn't even a member here yet. ;D

I am totally convinced Havana is right on this one...I never believed the alley truck/ explosion truck to be remotely the same as the chase truck, personally. I always figured Ford's comment on the great movie stunts video was a mistake (either his or the narrative script writer's).

Now, the Disneyland truck has me intrigued. It sure looks like the Raiders chase truck, but there are some details that don't seem quite right. Were some things changed on the truck prior to it being put on display at the park? Or is this just another truck made up to look like one of the Raiders chase trucks? If it is the same truck, then it looks like it's had a fair amount of repairs done since it was used in Raiders.

[Bakersfield Jones]

From what I have been able to see, the shovel was added to the grill guard. The turn indicators have been straightened out. And the most telling clue from the pics I put up...The hood ornament is broken off. It was the same way in the movie..continuity and all that. The canvas was replaced. Windshield was replaced, and the Temple of the Forbidden Eye expedition logo has been painted on the doors. They also added what looks to be wooden ladders to the sides, as well as an old storage box on the right front fender,but I'm pretty sure that it's the real deal. I used to live 12 miles away, and I recalled when it opened, that there was a lot of hoopla over the truck, and its pedigree. There's also a mine car from TOD tucked away behind the truck. It makes sense, in a way, Lucafilm donated quite a few props for Star Tours...such as R5-D4, (the red droid that blows its top in Episode 4) and the Threepio costume from TheEmpire Strikes Back, to name a few. I'll try to get more pics.

[Havana]

This is an old thread! I originally had some detailed images to illustrated what I was talking about. I don't know where they went. Dog must have eaten them. IndyBlues, I do have one of those new Hasbro trucks. It's actually pretty well detailed for a toy. I also plan to paint mine and distress it a bit for display whenever I get around to it. I'll post some pics when I do. As far as the Disney truck goes, if it's got a 6 lug wheel on it you can bet it's the same truck used in Raiders. A real Mercedes from that era would have 8 lugs. There is a ancient legend that they actually built two such trucks for Raiders. One was kept on hand as a back up in case the other broke down or crashed. According to the story they only used the first one and the second one was disassembled and the cab was placed on a flat truck bed to be used for all of the first unit photography featuring Mr. Ford's closeups. (Thank God they didn't try to use a bluescreen.) Anyway, this tale seems to be supported by some behind the scenes footage that shows a similar but slightly different truck cab being carried on the back of a film truck. The truck at Disney may be the only surviving truck, which would be the actual truck seen in most of the film. I wish I could get my hands on it and restore it.

[Bakersfield Jones]

Hey Havana, six lugs on the rear axles?...or on all the wheels? check out this link I found...

farm1.static.flickr.com/31/58866292_74f7b8ef30.jpg?v=0

The spare tire is a six lug configuration!

[Kaplan]

They are pretty similar. Though the license plates are slightly different.

WH - 112G4

vs

WH - 11204

Though, that could be dirt on the "0" in the screengrab that makes it look like a "G"

It's also hard to tell if the Disney truck has the word Diesel under the grill.

[Bakersfield Jones]

It's a "G" in Disneyland...I think. I'm looking for a better view. Also says Diesel behind the shovel...barely visible...magnify the heck out of this link:

farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/2481525061_c54fe59d1a.jpg?v=0

[GCR]

The license plate issue is rather curious. It's pretty clearly an "0" on the Disney truck, but the screencap does look more like a "G". Of course, it could be dirt on the film truck making it look like a "G", after all, why would a letter be stuck there in a sequence that contains all numbers? Or, the license plate may have been missing from the film truck when they found it to put it on display at Disney, and they added a new one, mistaking the "G" for an "0", as the pictures and film stills available at the time of the truck's recovery were far less clear than the DVD screencaps we have today. Or it could just be a totally different truck.

My own belief is that this IS the Raiders truck. Where it had been hiding and how Disney tracked it down is anyone's guess. But since they acquired the bulk of the vehicles from LC for the MGM park, I don't think it's that outlandish to believe they did a little digging and found the old Raiders truck to plop down in Disneyland a few years later.

[Bakersfield Jones]

The Lucasfilm Archives keep everything. Like a museum peice, it's on permanent loan. God, I'd love to take a peek in THAT warehouse.

[Bakersfield Jones]

OK...I can't get a screen cap, but chapter 23, time code 00:02:05 has a head on shot of the truck as it is about to bump the Mercedes sedan. Zoom in and you will see : WH-11204. Same as the Disney truck. The pic above seems to be dirt obscuring the plate. Hope this helps.

Scott

[Bakersfield Jones]

Man, can I kill a thread, or what?

Must be bad dates.

[jerrico]

they are awesome pictures of the truck, there must have been replicas built at some point, just like there are thousands of general lee's and kitt's out there,

I wondered what happened to the jungle cutter from KCS, it was hardly seen in the movie, for such an awesome vehicle only for it to be blown up at the start of the big chase

I went to the Bovington tank museum and saw the WW1 tanks used for inspiration for the last crusade tank, but the movie version is a fictional design