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Post by jweaver on Jun 22, 2006 19:33:55 GMT -5
As you guys know during the gunfight in the Raben Bar Indy ducks into the doorway and then suddenly appears with a Browning Hi-Power. I've always wondered where it came from. Was he wearing a shoulder holster? Tucked into his belt? In his bag? What do you guys think? Oops...and gals.
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Post by Alabama Jones on Jun 22, 2006 20:14:25 GMT -5
Any of those are possibilites. I've always thought he most likely had it tucked down in his pants (like on the ship and like he does with the Webley in LC) and concealed by his jacket.
I know the backstory of him having the Browning, but I believe the original intent, as it was written in the script, was for it to be a 1911.
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Post by jweaver on Jun 22, 2006 20:23:44 GMT -5
Any of those are possibilites. I've always thought he most likely had it tucked down in his pants (like on the ship and like he does with the Webley in LC) and concealed by his jacket. I know the backstory of him having the Browning, but I believe the original intent, as it was written in the script, was for it to be a 1911. Yea, I think thats the most likely too. I believe your correct about the 1911. Why carry two guns of two different calibers? As I recall in 1936 the Hi-Power had just been in military service for a year. It would have been all but impossible for Indy to get one.
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Post by pitfallharry on Jun 22, 2006 20:49:05 GMT -5
I always looked at it as a continuity error in the film. I never read much else into it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2006 20:52:02 GMT -5
I think Indy saw how many opponents he was going to face and kept that Automatic in close reach, most likely in his belt. Where it came from I don't know.
Cheers, G-MANN
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Post by Havana on Jun 23, 2006 7:43:25 GMT -5
I think G-mann and Pitfall are both right. I think Indy preferred a revolver but sometimes packed an automatic for more shots and faster reloading. Who knows maybe it was always in his bag? I have heard the story that the auto was supposed to be a 1911 but was replaced with a "similar looking' Hi-Power because the Colt had trouble feeding the blanks. Having a 1911, makes a lot more sense in the context of the story, so when I watch it I chose to see a 1911 and not the Hi-Power that's actually there. There are definite continuity errors in that scene where you see Indy firing the auto and then it immediately switches to an over the shoulder angle and it's the revolver again. Having the hero use 2 different guns in one complex sequence is just asking for a continuity nightmare. That may be why the auto isn't present in the sequels.
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Post by indianatone on Jun 23, 2006 17:11:22 GMT -5
Never thought about it much until this topic, but I guess carrying both weapons is the ultimate screen accurate version. Don't know where the gun came from but it does appear to be a significant 'hold out' piece in his arsenal. (The continuity of the Raven Bar scene is probably from the pick up shots of Indy firing the weapon during a close-up, with the editor being an opportunist and using another segment of that same shot.) First, when Indy gets peeks out from behind the wall, second, when Indy peeks out from behind the wall to shoot the logs. If you watch both times he does that, it would seem that in shooting order, they had him fire the weapon in that setup several times and just used the segment for two different incidents. - Oh, blah.....that's way too detailed, but probably the reason. Getting back to the automatic, don't forget about the Bantu Wind, "The engines have stopped," scene. Here's where he puts it here.
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Post by jweaver on Jun 23, 2006 17:24:58 GMT -5
I always thought it was intersting that it only shows up in those two scene. I'd love to have one of those. From what I hear they are perhaps the best auto ever made.
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Post by winstonwolf359 on Jun 23, 2006 17:43:38 GMT -5
Well, I suppose it's easier to believe Indy could carry a gun that had at least been invented in 1936, unlike the Germans carrying P-38's and MP-40's years before they'd been invented...
As for WHERE Indy carried the Hi-Power, I guess either in his jacket, or tucked into his waistband, but the jacket makes the most sense to me. Since he didn't have his bag with him in the Raven bar that wouldn't even be an option.
I actually think his carrying a 9mm pistol along with a .45 makes a lot of sense. The .45 S&W would obviously be his first choice, because revolvers are a lot more reliable, especially at this time in history, so I'm sure Indy carried what he was most comfortable with.
However, in his globetrotting he'd be bound to be in countries where the .45 ammo wouldn't be nearly as common as 9mm... Which would have probably been almost everywhere except America and Britain. And a gun's no good if you can't find bullets for it...
So by carrying both a .45 AND a 9mm pistol he'd be pretty much guaranteed to be able get bullets for one of those guns no matter where he ended up.
That's what *I* think, anyway...
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Post by indianatone on Jun 23, 2006 19:02:00 GMT -5
Yep. And this gets waaaaaay too much into the logic of the films for me at this point. He had an auto and a revolver. That's what I saw in the film. Despite the actual models and their timeline availability behind the scenes, I know he had an automatic and a revolver as the character. Works for me.
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Post by jweaver on Jun 23, 2006 19:14:00 GMT -5
We do tend to think a bit too much about all of this stuff don't we?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2006 20:24:54 GMT -5
We do tend to think a bit too much about all of this stuff don't we? Yes, we walk a very thin line between Hobby and Obsession Cheers, G-MANN
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Post by indianatone on Jun 24, 2006 9:38:56 GMT -5
Well, if it weren't for obsessiveness, we'd all be wearing the officially licensed wools, running around saying, "That's an Indy hat!" I guess. The original question, though, J_Weaver, it's easy enough for me to justify he had the gun tucked in the front waistband with his jacket zipped up halfway in the Raven Bar. ::shrug:: Maybe?
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Post by jweaver on Jun 24, 2006 9:54:46 GMT -5
The original question, though, J_Weaver, it's easy enough for me to justify he had the gun tucked in the front waistband with his jacket zipped up halfway in the Raven Bar. ::shrug:: Maybe? That makes perfect sense Tone. Just for fun I'll go overboard and explain why. At some point after leaving the Raven Indy spots Toht and the other guys heading to the Raven. Now anyone could look at those guys and see that had trouble written all over them. So he the grabs his Hi-Power (Perhaps in the car that he had rented with the rest of his gear.) tucks in into his belt and heads back to the Raven. And the rest is history. The novel mentions him renting or barrowing a car so that is where that part came from.
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Post by indianatone on Jun 24, 2006 10:20:16 GMT -5
He rented his gear, too? ;D ;D Just playing. Yeah, makes sense to me. He does leave the scene briefly....could have gone back and grabbed the extra. I think your reasoning works, J_Weaver. And now, just for fun.... There is the extended version of the novel, where Indy went back to the rented car, found he'd locked his keys in there, had to call a locksmith to come down, open the door, and get him back in. He realizes he'd just given Marion all the money he had and can't pay a very tired and angry locksmith. Indy actually returns to the bar to get some of that money back from Marion to pay the Locksmith back. The exchange between Indy and the Locksmith went something like this: Indy: "What are the odds I can pay you back for this another time?" Locksmith: "Short of that place burning down, you better get my money." Indy: "Back in a minute."
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Post by Alabama Jones on Jun 25, 2006 0:49:36 GMT -5
He rented his gear, too? ;D ;D Just playing. Yeah, makes sense to me. He does leave the scene briefly....could have gone back and grabbed the extra. I think your reasoning works, J_Weaver. And now, just for fun.... There is the extended version of the novel, where Indy went back to the rented car, found he'd locked his keys in there, had to call a locksmith to come down, open the door, and get him back in. He realizes he'd just given Marion all the money he had and can't pay a very tired and angry locksmith. Indy actually returns to the bar to get some of that money back from Marion to pay the Locksmith back. The exchange between Indy and the Locksmith went something like this: Indy: "What are the odds I can pay you back for this another time?" Locksmith: "Short of that place burning down, you better get my money." Indy: "Back in a minute." LMAO ... ;D I can get you another 25 when I get back to the states ... OR ... I can write you a check. *shifty eyes*
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Post by jweaver on Jun 25, 2006 10:13:44 GMT -5
Hey 'Bama, is that a line you used on your last vacation?
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Post by Tyrloch on Jul 25, 2006 14:07:21 GMT -5
It has always bothered me when I found out that the actual screen-used gun was a Hi-power & not a 1911. I was so sure that it was a 1911, especially after seeing LC...did you ever notice the look on Indy's face after the 9mm round goes straight through 3 German soldiers? I don't think he would've been so surprised if he had fired a 9mm before. A 1911 just seemed to fit the period so well too. I realize it's just a movie, but I still think of his back-up gun as a 1911...
~Jace
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Post by jweaver on Jul 25, 2006 19:12:51 GMT -5
...did you ever notice the look on Indy's face after the 9mm round goes straight through 3 German soldiers? That scene has always bothered me. I certainly hate to rupture anyone bubble, but the 9mm isn't that powerful. Of course scenes like that always make for good TV, but thats about it. Sometimes I to say to myself, "Weaver, Weaver, let it go. Its only a movie."
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Post by Tyrloch on Jul 26, 2006 7:35:08 GMT -5
I too, realize that it's only a movie. But at extreme close range, and if the bullet didn't deflect off any bone, it may at least be possible, even if very unlikely...before anyone says 'never could happen' -- have you tried it?...after all, wasn't the 9mm developed as an armor-piercing round? Has anyone here ever shot at anything but paper targets? If so, at what range? I haven't, but I've shot wooden arrows completely through the back of my 3/4" plywood shed with only a 60# horsebow at 15 yards -- so why would'nt it be possible for a 9mm bullet to pass clean through a man at a range of 1 foot? I'm not arguing that it definitely would happen like that, only that in certain situations things are possible...
~Jace
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Post by jweaver on Jul 26, 2006 19:42:16 GMT -5
Wierd things do happen, but I will have to say that it is all but impossible for a 9mm to pass through several men. I've never heard that it was designed as an AP round. My understanding was that it was designed as a more power version of the 7.65 mm Parabellum round. Its really only a bit more powerful than the .38 Special. Many police agancies have moved on to the .40 cal, .357 Sig or stuck to the .45ACP because the 9mm is generaly considered underpowered for the job at hand. There are many horrior sotries of the 9mm failing to stop an attacker. I remember seeing a video taken from a dash cam of a police car in which the officer shot an attacker in the with no noticeable results. Of course, who is to say what drugs the guy was on at the time. I seem to have wondered off course a bit, but what I getting at is that nothing is totally impossible, but it is highly unlikely So it could happen, but like the Mythbusters say, I have to give this one a possible, but not probable I've punched holes in more than just paper and wood, but not with a 9mm. It would take a 4" x 4" or so to stop a 9mm or something similar. I do a bit of hunting, but mostly small game. The biggest thing I've ever killed was a wild dog. Don't worry, these aren't the "man's best friend" type. There the ones that will attack a fellow if the situation is in there favor. This was with a .44mag rifle at about 125 yards. So comparing the results to a 9mm at close range is about like comparing apples to oranges.
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Post by bendingoak on Aug 2, 2006 23:10:53 GMT -5
Isn't that what the full metal jacket was made for. To hit more than one durring a battle. The hollow point was made to stay in the body.
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Post by jweaver on Aug 3, 2006 21:37:47 GMT -5
A FMJ is a none expanding bullet, but its not really intended to penetrate more than one target as far as I know. Back in the day, many automatic weapons were prone to jam using none jacketed or HP bullets. Anywho, a 9mm FMJ round could pass through one person and possibly enter a second, but passsing through several people is stretching reality a bit. Perhaps someone should contact the Mythbusters about this one?It would be cool to see what they come up with. P.S. Yup, the HP is intended to expand rapidly and cause maximum damage.
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Post by bendingoak on Aug 4, 2006 23:59:09 GMT -5
I don't know. I think that scene is easy to believe over many of the others.
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Post by IndyBlues on Aug 5, 2006 14:34:11 GMT -5
Didn't the nazis do the same thing to people in Schindlers List? In a disgusting display of trying to see how many people a bullet would go thru. Just another reason to hate nazis. 'Blues
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