The Muddied History of the Indy Jacket?

[Kt. Templar]

A controversial claim has surfaced on COW, does anyone, (other then Patterson, who has said a lot in the last few days but never with much solid evidence), actually know the real truth?

The claim (goes something like this), Peter made the Raiders jackets, the french company made the TOD, Patterson et al had the G&B jacket made, Peter had the G&B jacket to hand when he made the LC jacket for the movie!!

Essentially they are saying that Peter had lost the patterns between the movies (which he has confirmed) but also saying that the LC is Peter's remake of the G&B which in turn is a remake of Peter's Raiders.

Please correct me If I have been misinterpreting the claims and counterclaims over there.

[indianatone]

It's all speculation on my part, KT, but I've heard several times, not from Patterson, that Peter did lose the original patterns to the Indy Jacket.

I don't know about whether or not he'd used a GB to remake the LC jacket, but why would he have used D-Rings and placed the yoke so low if he were copying a GB? The cut itself on the LC looks like the current versions of Wested's standard Raiders - even though they're innaccurate themselves.

It's all very puzzling.

[pitfallharry]

I've heard the original patterns for the Raiders jacket were taken from Peter and are being studied by "Top Men" in our goverment.

[Kt. Templar]

indianatone said:

It's all speculation on my part, KT, but I've heard several times, not from Patterson, that Peter did lose the original patterns to the Indy Jacket.

I don't know about whether or not he'd used a GB to remake the LC jacket, but why would he have used D-Rings and placed the yoke so low if he were copying a GB? The cut itself on the LC looks like the current versions of Wested's standard Raiders - even though they're innaccurate themselves.

It's all very puzzling.

Yes, it is well documented that they lost the patterns after Raiders, I have belived that the TOD hero and LC hero are much more closely related to the jackets we see out of Wested. If you look closely at the yoke in LC it is identical.

Peter did say they found an old jacket when they moved to Wested Lane from Enfield and re made the patterns. What's to say the jacket they found wasn't a LC or TOD.

I really think they don't differentiate as strongly between the 3 films a we do. To them it is the "Indy Jacket". If we ask for a TOD they make it slightly longer, if we ask for a LC they make it the same length as the TOD, add snaps to the storm flap and put a bigger collar on it.

He does have a jacket hanging on the opposite side of the shop from the Indy rail, it's along with an original jacket from Phantom Menace and Harry Potter. I've never got round to asking him what that jacket is...

[Ragingblues]

I've heard pieces of these stories from Patterson and a few others, but never before in one lumped together post. Im guessing it has caused quite an uproar, especially given the typical fight that ensues when a Wested and Flightsuits comparison comes up.

One thing's for sure.... I'll bet the water gets muddier before it's resolved.

Ken

[IndyBlues]

Ok, hypothetically speaking,...IF Peter used an FS jacket to copy to make the LC jacket for the film(I think that's what is being talked about), didn't FS use Peters jacket to make a pattern for THEIR creation?? Doesn't that mean Peter is basically copying a jacket that is a copy of his??
I think I have a headache,..this is almost as migraine inducing as discussing the ramifications of time travel.
'Blues

[garzo]

pitfallharry said:

I've heard the original patterns for the Raiders jacket were taken from Peter and are being studied by "Top Men" in our goverment.

Who??

[garzo]

indyblues said:

Ok, hypothetically speaking,...IF Peter used an FS jacket to copy to make the LC jacket for the film(I think that's what is being talked about), didn't FS use Peters jacket to make a pattern for THEIR creation?? Doesn't that mean Peter is basically copying a jacket that is a copy of his??
I think I have a headache,..this is almost as migraine inducing as discussing the ramifications of time travel.
'Blues

Yes, it's like what came first, the chicken or the egg?

We're talking of about the clone of a clone. . .

[pitfallharry]

garzo said:

pitfallharry said:

I've heard the original patterns for the Raiders jacket were taken from Peter and are being studied by "Top Men" in our goverment.

Who??

TOP MEN, Dr. Jones! ;D

[Kt. Templar]

garzo said:

indyblues said:

Ok, hypothetically speaking,...IF Peter used an FS jacket to copy to make the LC jacket for the film(I think that's what is being talked about), didn't FS use Peters jacket to make a pattern for THEIR creation?? Doesn't that mean Peter is basically copying a jacket that is a copy of his??
I think I have a headache,..this is almost as migraine inducing as discussing the ramifications of time travel.
'Blues

Yes, it's like what came first, the chicken or the egg?

We're talking of about the clone of a clone. . .

I agree if Peter is cloning the copy of his jacket then it's a non issue.

The slightly disturbing thing about the accusation is that Patterson is suggesting that the familiar (slightly ornate) inside pocket might actually be copied from the G&B!



I don't know the details well enough... the original Raiders jackets "might" just have a plain piped pocket.

[IndyBlues]

I had an old G&B for a few weeks, and it had a piping type inside pocket. It caused the lining to sag and come out from behind the zipper,....really annoying. I think the pocket Peter uses now (like shown above) was made to STOP that from happening.

EDIT: Actually, my NEW G&B has the same type of pocker, with no facing, like my old one did. I hope this one doesn't "demon roll" on me too.
'Blues

[garzo]

Does anyone have a pic of the G&B's inside pocket? I really like the leather lining of the wested on both the inside pocket and zipper. I know a lot of people don't like it because they say it affects the way the jacket hangs or something.

I can see that perhaps happening with a thin lamb, but I don't notice it at all on my horsehide, I guess because the horsehide is a lot thicker.

[Marc]

Peter made the Raiders jackets, the french company the ToD jackets and Peter the LC jackets. Years later, Patterson is said to have had his hands on a screen used Raiders stunt jacket from which the pattern are said to be taken for the G&B (even though it DOES have some really small flaws too). The G&B is a copy of the Wested, not the other way around.

Regards,

Marc

[Ragingblues]

According to grail lore... uh, I mean.... the Indy jacket history, it goes like this:

1. Peter made the Raiders jackets.

2. Peter lost the designs for it, so a French company made the TOD jackets by copying the design of a Raider's jacket.

3. Patterson, Keppler, and maybe MK (not sure), were responsible for measuring and capturing all the details of a screen used Raider's stunt jacket. This became the Flightuits prototype jacket design that Keppler gave to Peter to make him some personal jackets from. Peter Made new patterns from it and was able to make jackets for Last Crusade when that was filmed. Modifications were then made to the Flightsuits design, when they realized they needed to check some more measurements. This became the jacket design that would go on sale as a Flightsuits Indy jacket.

4. Peter said at a later date, that he went back and found an old Raider's jacket that was never used, and got his old patterns back from that. This not very reliable for two reasons, it took forever for Lee Keppler to get his jacket returned (because Peter had been using it to make patterns from) and when Raiders was made, they had to scramble to make 10 jackets for the movie in only a few days. There is very little chance they even had time to make an extra jacket at all.

5. Peter began selling the jacket to the public, marketing himself as the original maker of the Indy jackets. He even said/says that he is also using the original plans, which wouldn't be true since they were lost. He was/is using copies of the design for the jacket he originally made.. and most likely copies made from the Flightsuits prototype jacket.

Now... the only piece of information in this whole account that is up in the air is: Did Peter really find an old jacket that is not very likely to have existed? Or, did he copy the patterns to make some jackets for Lee Keppler and then use them to get back into the Indy business as well? The fact that he used the FS design to make Keppler's jackets is not in question, as he had no patterns anymore at that point. Only after getting the jacket from Keppler to make them, did he suddenly discover the old never worn jacket.

Who knows and does it really matter? I don't think it's important, except to point out that the work on the FS jacket greatly helped Peter and his ability to get back into LC and make jackets to sell to us. So, the idea that a Wested wearer would want to bash FS as a secondary beast is ridiculous. Not only that, but due to Peter changing the design to accomodate customer requests over the years, the Flightsuits (now G&B) jacket is currently the closest to the original Raider's patterns there is. So what if the Wested is a copy of a copy of the original by Peter.... they both still look great!

I have 2 Wested jackets and love them. I would love to see a G&B in person one day, and am even excited about Todd's new jacket as well. I don't see a reason anyone should be bashing a company that is making the very things we are interested in wearing. The same thing happens with the hat manufacturers as well, and it's sort of stupid. Just buy what you want and make it look as good as you can.

Ken

[Deleted]

All I know is I like wearing them all no matter who made them ;D

Cheers,
G-MANN

[Havana]

I think it's fitting that this subject is shrouded in mystery. As for the jacket's true origins, I think I'll choose to "let it go" as Big Sean says in LC.

[Ragingblues]

Great choice sir!

Regardless of what the truth is with all the little details, it is fitting that something about Indy's gear is "shrouded in mystery".

Ken

[fedoraman]

All I know for sure that Patterson is a loud mouthed, bully with an ultra-elevated opinion of himself. I would question anything he states...

[Ragingblues]

I have heard bits of this story from a few other sources, but have to admit that you do make a very good point fedoraman.

Welcome to the lounge, BTW!

Ken

[Kt. Templar]

Welcome Fedoraman! You bring our numbers up to 100! Woohoo! I agree with you too

[jweaver]

Here's the way I heard the story:

Of course we all know that Peter designed and made the Raiders jackets He also made jackets for ToD, but during filming they needed more and Peter was unable to accommodate them (working on another project I believe) so a French company made a few jackets as well. I remember reading that Ford hated the French jackets.

The patterns were lost sometime between ToD an LC. Peter basically built the LC jacket from memory. Thats why the LC jacket looks a bit difference than the others.

Patterson, Keppler and MK came on the scene in the early 90's. They somehow were able to get their hands on a stunt jacket from Raiders and they worked with G&B to get the Expedition made.

I may be mistaken, but thats the way I remember the story.

[Ragingblues]

I have heard this version f the story as well. I guess the truth may never be known, which adds to the mystery.

Thanks for sharing another fine angle to the story,

Ken

[GCR]

I just figured I'd share what little I know about this old and confusing story. Most of this may not be all that helpful (in fact it may just muddy up the waters even further) as it is all from memories of posts that were written years ago at Indyfan.com, back in the days before COW.

I think it was around 1999 or so, I was posting at Indyfan back then off and on, as were all the other gear-folks. I believe I recall a post from Michaelson regarding Lee Keppler's involvment in the design of a jacket sometime in the 1980's. Apparently, Keppler, stickler for detail that he was, had watched Raiders over and over and had used some sort of method (perhaps similar to the method Fedora recently used to determine the specs of the Raiders fedora, by placing rulers over still shots from the film) to determine what he felt were the correct specs for the jacket. Keppler then contracted someone (this could have been G&B) to make a jacket using his specs. I can't recall if he also had access to a film-used, Raiders stunt-jacket at this time, or if the stunt jacket didn't come on the scene until years later when the Expedition was being created by the collaboration of Keppler, Patterson, MK & the rest.

Anyway, according to my (admittedly shaky) memory of the post, this Keppler contracted jacket may have found its way to Peter, I think back before they were even called Wested (when they were still "Leather Concessionaires"). This is the jacket that, according to some sources (who, I will admit, know much more on this subject than I do) Peter kept for a time and subsequently used to create the pattern for the early Wested jackets that he sold to fans.

The G&B/Flightsuits connection to the Indy Gear world might have been sparked by the original contract they had with Keppler back in the 80's, but actual work on the creation of a whole new Indy jacket offering did not begin until the late 90's, early 2000's, as far as I know. Again, from what I remember from reading posts at Indyfan and years later reading more posts at COW, both Patterson and MK were researching info on the jacket, and Michaelson (through contact with both of them at Indyfan) steered one towards the other and they collaborated (with, I believe, Keppler) on the creation of the current G&B.

Thus, it would not have been an Expedition that was used by Peter to create his new "pattern", as that jacket was not developed until years later.

Again, just a disclaimer, the information contained in this post may be incorrect or even totally untrue, these memories are a bit hazy after all. I COULD verify this to some degree, if only I could get into the "Vault" over at the Indyfan forum (this sounds much more sinister than it really is, I just can't seem to get the page to redirect and load properly. I think the server on which the forum vault resides may be down). If anyone can get into the Indyfan forum vault, I'd suggest taking a stroll through the posts from the late 90's and early 2000's. Back before the creation of COW and the Exodus of the Gearheads. A lot of answers to the great jacket mystery are just there, waiting to be rediscovered.

-GCR

[Ragingblues]

There you have it folks..... more solid proof that the jacket is shrouded in mystery!

Seriously.... it's funny how many different stories have been going around about this topic. I would also like to point out that the post I made on this subject was taken from the point of view that everything Patterson was claiming was actually true. It was more of a "let's suppose this is the case" sort of thing. However, since there are (and have been) more versions of what really happened, the plot thickens.

I'm guessing that only Lee Keppler and Peter know for sure, and I doubt very seriously we'll be getting the play by play from them anytime soon.

More cool info GCR... thanks for sharing!

Ken

[GCR]

And now, ladies and gentlemen, for my next trick, I am going to completely refute my own possible version of the Indy jacket story that I posted above by posting this other possible scenario. This is again drawn entirely from my memory, so the standard disclaimer regarding accuracy of information still applies.

Anyways, here's another possible version of events regarding the whole Wested / Flightsuits controversy.

I'm not quite sure what the original claim was, made by Patterson over at COW, that sparked this thread, but I believe it essentially accused Peter at Wested of copying the design of a G&B jacket that he had acquired from Lee Keppler. As I thought on that, I recalled that Wested did indeed change the design of their jackets at some point between 1999 and 2003. I purchased my first Wested jacket in 1999. It was a Raiders style, in Dark Brown lambskin (the only color choice at the time) with a full satin lining. The jacket never quite fit right (my fault, not Wested's) and I finally decided to replace it in 2003. The jacket I ordered was a dark-brown lambskin, Raiders style, with no custom mods beyond size (I supplied them with the specs of a jacket that fit me perfectly, and so did my 2nd Wested when it came )and the cotton body/satin sleeves. The jacket that I got in 2003 looked MUCH different than the jacket I got in 1999. I won't go through all the differences here, but it was not the same pattern and cut that my old, 99 Wested had. It is THIS change in the Indy jacket from Wested that might be what Patterson was referring to.

Apparently, when the group of guys from Indygear got together to work on a new, more screen-accurate jacket, they somehow managed to get their hands on a screen-used stunt jacket from Raiders. I have no idea how, of course. Anyway, they weren't able to take pictures of the jacket, only take measurements. It was these measurements that must have been used to create a prototype jacket (perhaps made by G&B, as I think at least one of the guys working on the project, if not two or three, had contacts there.) Now, after having a prototype created, the decision was made to contact Peter and see if he was interested in altering his jacket design and making his Indy jackets according to the new "screen-accurate" specs. For whatever reason, he declined, but, he apparently held on to the prototype jacket that had been given to him to inspect/review (this could be the origin of Patterson's claim, if any of this is actually true...). After having this jacket in his posession for a period of time, suddenly, the Wested design changed. The claim was made that Peter "rediscovered" the lost pattern for the original Raiders jacket, and he altered the patterns to incorporate the features from the original. Many of the features that were also found on the G&B prototype and the eventual G&B Expedition, including new color options that were deemed "authentic".

Now, do I think Peter really just copied the prototype jacket from the Indygear guys, and was thus fibbing a bit when he claimed he "found" the original jacket pattern? I have no proof, and I'm not into assumptions (we all know the clever little sayings about assuming things). I have never met Peter, but I have corresponded with him via email when ordering my last jacket, and he was very pleasant and kind. He made me one heck of jacket that I greatly enjoy. He has been very accomodating to the Indy fans and he seems like a great guy.I have no reason to really question his version of events. But then again, I have no reason to question Patterson, Keppler or any of the guys in the other camp, either.

And again, one must consider, even if Peter did copy the prototype jacket that he got from Keppler or whoever, it was a jacket made from measurements taken from a jacket that Peter himself made back in 1980 or whenever. So in a way, even if that story is true, one could say that Peter did, indeed, "rediscover" the lost patterns. Who knows???

And I STILL can't get into the Indyfan vault! One trip through there and this whole mess could be sorted out in a snap.

-GCR