dougc
Temple Guard
Posts: 181
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Post by dougc on Sept 4, 2008 19:22:36 GMT -5
Today Peter from Wested posted pictures elsewhere showing how the Noel Howard Temple of Doom jacket has a YKK european style 10 gauge zipper and pocket snaps from a european company called Nuwey of England. Peter's comments and pictures have completely been glazed over, not a single comment... I suppose you could make a stretch and claim that it's not proof of anything but to me it's clearer evidence than saying that there are contracts that nobody else can see. I see it as being a more tangable proof that the jacket was not made by the US mfg Cooper. I also believe most folks are afraid to point this out.. here are the pictures:     I do have questions though - Had Peter ever heard of this Nuwey company before? What makes the zipper a european one? It can't just be the way it's installed because with a zipper you can install it so the pull is on either side. So how does he know it's a certain model? Doug C |
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Post by Ragingblues on Sept 4, 2008 19:56:29 GMT -5
I can't believe how many people are willing to bite their tongue and not point out the truth elsewhere, when blatant lies are told about things like this.  You are correct sir, the TOD jackets were a mix of those made by a company in Europe and leftover Raiders jackets. Regardless of what agenda is being pushed by others, feel free to speak the truth here about such things.  Ken |
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Post by docjones on Sept 4, 2008 22:21:24 GMT -5
I can't believe how many people are willing to bite their tongue and not point out the truth elsewhere, when blatant lies are told about things like this. You are correct sir, the TOD jackets were a mix of those made by a company in Europe and leftover Raiders jackets. Regardless of what agenda is being pushed by others, feel free to speak the truth here about such things. Ken Why would people be holding back, and who is preventing them from saying what's on their mind? This is just a leather jacket, right? |
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Post by Ragingblues on Sept 5, 2008 6:59:41 GMT -5
I can't believe how many people are willing to bite their tongue and not point out the truth elsewhere, when blatant lies are told about things like this. You are correct sir, the TOD jackets were a mix of those made by a company in Europe and leftover Raiders jackets. Regardless of what agenda is being pushed by others, feel free to speak the truth here about such things. Ken Why would people be holding back, and who is preventing them from saying what's on their mind? This is just a leather jacket, right? At the other place mentioned in the original post in this thread, you face being banned if you dare go against what they call the truth. I guess some people are more concerned about having their membership there stay in tact, than being allowed to speak freely. That doesn't happen here, so it wasn't in reference to anything at Indy Lounge. And you are correct... it is just a jacket. Ken |
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dougc
Temple Guard
Posts: 181
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Post by dougc on Sept 5, 2008 14:01:41 GMT -5
docjones wrote:
Because pointing out that the jacket is not a cooper goes against the claims that patterson makes in his jacket write-ups, that the TofD jackets were made by cooper. Well here's TofD screne used jacket that's turning out not to be a cooper afterall, and the admins over there have put a great deal into boosting the write-ups.
Oh you can speak your mind, nobodys stopping you (at first)..however if you do so you will probably be insulted by the author at the very least, but you're sure to be banned if you refuse to drop it pretty quickly, and thus you've gotten yourself a bad rep to boot. You'll have a short leash from now on. Your right, it is just a jacket.. but more importantly it's their history.
Doug C
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Post by Kt. Templar on Sept 5, 2008 14:43:32 GMT -5
Today Peter from Wested posted pictures elsewhere showing how the Noel Howard Temple of Doom jacket has a YKK european style 10 gauge zipper and pocket snaps from a european company called Nuwey of England. Peter's comments and pictures have completely been glazed over, not a single comment... I suppose you could make a stretch and claim that it's not proof of anything but to me it's clearer evidence than saying that there are contracts that nobody else can see. I see it as being a more tangable proof that the jacket was not made by the US mfg Cooper. I also believe most folks are afraid to point this out.. here are the pictures: I do have questions though - Had Peter ever heard of this Nuwey company before? What makes the zipper a european one? It can't just be the way it's installed because with a zipper you can install it so the pull is on either side. So how does he know it's a certain model? Doug C Newey and Eyre is an old English brand. Some MKVII's have Newey snaps. They are still around today although their snaps have changed. The buckle on the TOD also has a european word on it. it could be German or French, they both translate about the same. This old Wested I had also had Newey snaps. Look familiar?  |
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Post by Sapito on Sept 5, 2008 14:45:12 GMT -5
Yep. And also their little USW tod jacket project that they claim have nothing to do with. It seems the USW TOD project was first initiated by a newish member who approached Sgt. Hack about it. I've seen nothing to suggest it's any kind of a COW project at all. In fact many people there seemed to shoot down the idea and favored the Wested TOD much more. I think a thread about the USW jacket was even locked. If you can give evidence that there's more to the USW project than meets the eye, I'd like to hear it because it seems to me that there are several people working quite hard (and quite quietly) to help bring us a new USW jacket at an excellent price. |
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Post by Sapito on Sept 5, 2008 14:58:52 GMT -5
I see no evidence of that because the person who first approached Hack about this was questioning the timing of Peter's announcement - he thought it came after his going to USW.
To me, it seemed like most people were pretty cool abut the whole USW thing and much prefered the Wested one. I don't think USW gets too much respect on COW and don't see anyone sticking their necks out for them.
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Post by Sapito on Sept 5, 2008 15:00:51 GMT -5
I see nothing wrong with a mod being involved - he's helping with the mock-up of the jacket, not dealing with USW from what I can tell. Nobody else seemed to want to help out. Also, other mods almost completely shot the project down.
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Post by Sapito on Sept 5, 2008 15:27:29 GMT -5
You have no proof if they have any part in it, so it's just speculation. Even if they did, why would that be problematic? There's a 10 page (or longer) thread about the Wested TOD, the USW TOD has very little response. I think we could agree COW isn't pushing this USW project anymore that it's pushing the Wested.
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dougc
Temple Guard
Posts: 181
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Post by dougc on Sept 5, 2008 17:23:23 GMT -5
Satipo, I can agree that they are not openly pushing the project..sort of, I mean michaelson is fast to post any news from hack, I feel he's promoted Wings specials in the past (clearance jackets, CE jackets, etc.) and that's fine with me too. I agree too that there are good folks working hard on the project and it will be great to have more options available.
But we should ask ourselves why was the NEW Wings TofD thread quickly made into a sticky, it's a thread started by a COW moderater let's not forget. Again, I have no problem with a mod helping out or carrying the ball, but making the thread a sticky while the competitor's thread stands alone is a little strange. The ORIGINAL Wings TofD thread (which was actually a poll) was shut down and Deleted as you mentioned - but it did include Peter's announcement that he would be making a reproduction of Noels jacket, perhaps that's why the thread was deleted? I THINK it was shut down because I reminded Holt that the details did matter and that as a Mod he should realise that COW was always about getting the details right. I got banned at that point because they said I was insulting a staff member with my remark to Holt. (never mind them letting patterson do far greater).
Peter's announcement would have stayed lost in the shuffle until another member started the "Will Peter be making a screen accurate TofD jacket" thread. No sticky. The two are equally as significant, right? If anything the jacket re-write for TofD allows Wings to take advantage of this opportunity, good for them, I seriously hope they sell as many as possible..but the "facts" that support the project are scetchy at best. We are now starting to see evidence to the contrary.
FYI, the Wings project was started around July 14th, Peter announced Noel's passing on the 10th of July and had arranged to get the jacket by the 12th.
Doug C
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Post by Sapito on Sept 5, 2008 18:14:28 GMT -5
I know there's been a lot of hostility directed at COW here - some needed, IMHO - but the guy who really got the ball rolling with the USW TOD was member Crismans. He's been very quiet and worked hard from what I gather. He seems to be doing a good job of moving ahead with his project while many others, including Patterson, seemingly tried to get it off course.
Yes, Michaelson does post news from USW but what's wrong with that? (Not a defense of Michaelson as I really have no idea of what he's saying half the time and really attacks certain people for no apparent reason.) I also see people posting news from other vendors, ESPECIALLY Wested.
One difference between the USW and the Wested TOD project is the USW was initiated by a CUSTOMER. The Wested was initiated by Wested. Crismans and mod Holt asked the COW community for input they would use to make a prototype - that's why I think it was a sticky. The post about the Wested TOD was a question if Peter was making a jacket or not, it was not a poll or an attempt to gather info. Peter has all he needs from the NH jacket. It's Peter's project and something he decided to do.
From what I know of Sgt. Hack, he makes jackets (damn fine jackets if you ask me) and sells them. He isn't into the SA custom work other vendors tolerate. I think he said if he gets an order for at least 100 jackets he'll make them. He offered a great price for COW members (like he did with his CE jacket) and as far as I know that's the limit of his interest.
Peter's a GREAT guy but I thought out of place posting in Crismans original poll and completely derailing it. It should have been closed even earlier as there was also a lot of BS from Patterson and others before that. Holt took the ball and with Crismans they went forward with little or no support from others. Holt is a mod (I like Holt though I don't know him) and has the authority to make a sticky. Again, I see this as more of a fan-made jacket than the Wested TOD so a sticky, poll, etc. is fine.
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Post by Kt. Templar on Sept 5, 2008 18:39:20 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the Wings TOD project started about a month after Noel passed. Unsurprisingly, I can't find the announcement post now.
I think Peter had it in the back of his mind to do a copy of the NH jacket when the opportunity arose, I did get the impression that the 2 of them were working in different circles for the last few years and it was in neither had any great interest in pulling this project together. I think I may have nudged him into activity when I called him on the 12th.
If it helps I've just sourced buckles for him and will be taking some samples to him this weekend.
I've had 2 Wings jackets, both have problems, sizing being the main one they are oversized and voluminous to say the least. And this is from XS to S to M that I have tried. I gave my sizes to them and they sent me a jacket that I could have fitted two of me in. Value for money I suppose. The 2 I kept for a while both had issues, one had a massive bulge in the back of the jacket, 1 foot wide by 1 foot tall, like some sort of hunchback and the A2 I still have has faulty snaps. They do seem fairly well constructed but not cut nicely or with any sophistication. Workmanlike, a bit like Dickies workwear.
Peter hasn't said that the NH jacket is one of his, in fact he's specifically stated that it is NOT one of his. I believe him, the jacket is surprisingly badly put together, I don't think that Wings would claim it if they saw it!
It does seem to be a European made jacket from the various bits of hardware. But I suppose we will never know for certain.
An interesting aside is that Lee Stuckey, Noel's assistant from way back to the original productions and the 'man on the shop floor' as it were, maintains and has reiterated in the last few weeks that Peter DID supply jackets for TOD. That is another one that we will never be able to confirm.
Peter did suggest asking his main machinist from the time, Doris, to look over the TOD jacket, but she left Wested a while ago and probably not on the friendliest terms!
Anyway lost more loose ends. Life would be a bit boring otherwise, eh?
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Post by Ragingblues on Sept 5, 2008 19:39:13 GMT -5
Seriously.... how about we talk more about the jackets and less about the other place? Though I do respect people's right to talk about that they wish, and even vent a little when necessary.... I honestly have no desire to read about COW everytime I log in to Indy Lounge. I'm not trying to rain on a parade or anything, so please don't misunderstand. It's just that I left that place behind 2-1/2 years ago and couldn't be happier not to be surrounded by so many overly critical, self serving people. It's a fine line to walk between freedom of speech and total nausea.... The whole jacket story with Peter and Noel is.... well, a different story.  Ken |
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dougc
Temple Guard
Posts: 181
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Post by dougc on Sept 5, 2008 20:56:54 GMT -5
satipo wrote :
I know all about the project. Crismans got the prototype jacket from me after all. And I cut him a pretty good deal on it mainly to help his project along, because of his passion for it.
regarding the above quote - That's because pat wouldn't acknowledge the differences between the screen used jacket and the old cooper jackets. He claims he has a very old one and that they are the same - but refuses to post pictures of it to show that the vents are just like the hero jacket. BTW, nobody ever stepped up to post pictures of the old coopers that were supposedly just like the TofD hero jacket. I don't believe they ever existed.
Sorry ragingblues, I hear ya about all the unnecessary talk and I know I've been the main one, I'll try to curtail it.
Doug C
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crismans
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Mayor of Strunk
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Post by crismans on Sept 5, 2008 22:54:03 GMT -5
First of all, I want to apologize to ragingblues (and to dougc) for taking this thread off track but there have been some comments here (and elsewhere) that I feel need responding to. I've tried to be very civil and low key with the project but enough is enough on some fronts. First of all, let me briefly go through the history of the TofD Wings project---again. I made a post how I thought it would be nice if Wings offered a Temple jacket as you could get a jacket of the other movies from the original manufacturer (whether or not you believe Cooper made the jacket is up to you and not my focus here). A few other people commented on it and then Michaelson posted an email reply from Sgt. Hack. From the tone of the email, I was afraid that I had offended Hack somehow and emailed him to clarify what I meant in my post. He told me that he wasn't offended at all and then made his offer to make 100 jackets if I could provide a prototype. Being that I was a very new member at the time, I pm'd Michaelson and asked if he knew of anyone else that could make the announcement as I didn't want to step on toes and I thought an older member could lend the project more credibility. He said that I should just go ahead and post it myself (and let me emphasize that this is the only involvement that Michaelson has had in the project, whatsoever). I posted the announcement and became the de facto spearhead for the project. To be honest, I wasn't thrilled with the idea of being the "face" of the project, but since I had opened my big mouth, I thought I should back my mouth up. I made several posts on the project, trying to get an idea what people wanted and trying to nail down certain details. Holt contacted me and said that he'd like to be involved as he really liked that particular jacket and loved working out the details. I welcomed the help as I wasn't (and still am not) a huge expert on the jackets. He has worked very, very hard on getting the details right with me helping as best I can and we are very close to having everything ready to send to Hack. That's the story, as short and sweet as I can make it. There is no clandestine organization behind this jacket to propagate lies. Only one member who blundered into a jacket project and another member with more knowledge who took pity on him. I must say that I've grown a little weary of some of the members taking potshots at this project for little or no reason that I can see. If Peter had an idea for this jacket a month before I posted my first thread, great--terrific. I'm not privy to inside Wested information as some seem to be. The first time I ever heard of Peter trying to acquire the Howard jacket was on a thread I had made concerning the Wings project. Doug C has the dates right in his post as I understand them. This isn't a stab at Peter at all. I really like Wested's products. I have a Wested Raiders, a LC on the way, and, yes, I'll be in line to buy a Wested ToD when it comes out. I'm glad that his products garner such loyalty but to flame anything else that comes along is just plain ridiculous. To answer a couple of other points that have been made. I asked that the original thread be closed because it was turning into one big argument and that wasn't my intention at all in starting it. I had posted to gauge the desire for a Temple jacket. After seeing that there was a desire, and before members started killing each other, I asked for it to be closed down. As to the Wings project being made a sticky, I have no control over that. The Wested jacket project should be a sticky too, and, if I understand right, it is going to be made one this weekend. AGAIN, apparently Peter had plans at least a month before I got my email from Hack to make a Temple jacket. If I had known this, I probably wouldn't have pushed on with the Wings project But since he didn't post it until after I had started my thread, here we are. I do feel that the Wings project is the ugly stepchild here, but that's no big deal. Peter has a long lineage with the Raiders franchise and has Howard's jacket to copy. I can fully appreciate the excitement for that jacket. I'm excited about it myself. But I'm also excited about the Wings project and Holt and I have put a great deal of time and effort into it. I hope that people like it and it does well too. If you don't like it (or the very idea of it), that's fine. Don't buy it. But please don't drag the project into the "politics" about how there are some members that you like or dislike (if you don't like me or Holt then that's a different story I guess ) And don't take potshots at people that are just trying to offer more choices to our community. |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Sept 6, 2008 7:28:46 GMT -5
Crismans, I wish you all the best luck with working on the your Wings project, honestly.
I actually talk with Holt a lot, he's very enthusiastic and driven. I find he slightly exaggerates the details he wants, much like lot of us, but it leads to a lot of trial and error.
My issues have been with Wings corporately. They are a big operation, I don't understand their need to continually try to corner this tiny Indy jacket market, the effort does not seem worth it.
I've talked to their phone people, Lisa was a delight to work with. But again "corporately" they have a bizzarely insular/USocentric (!?) attitude that is only gradually softening. A little while ago they would not take credit cards from overseas customers (even AMERICAN Express), they insisted I use Western Union (quite expensive). Then they wanted to charge 8 x shipping on a jacket.... That has now reduced to 4 x but still means a $60 surcharge. They even attempted to charge me the extra shipping to send to someone in the US because I wanted to order from overseas?? And finally no returns for non US buyers.
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crismans
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Mayor of Strunk
Posts: 42
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Post by crismans on Sept 6, 2008 8:26:41 GMT -5
If that's the case, KT, I completely understand your reluctance to deal with the company. Companies should make it as easy as possible for their customers to order from them.
And I hope that it didn't come off as if I was taking shots at anyone in particular. That was not my intent--I only wanted to clarify some issues. Personally, I'm just glad that we're getting a TofD jacket from one, possibly two, respected manufacturers.
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dougc
Temple Guard
Posts: 181
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Post by dougc on Sept 6, 2008 12:41:15 GMT -5
Sorry Crismans, I didn't mean for this thread to involve your project at all. It was just meant to point out that a screne used TofD jacket, the Noel Howard one was not a cooper at all. And it's the closest thing to real proof that fans have been offered one way or the other.
Doug C
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Post by Ragingblues on Sept 6, 2008 14:47:39 GMT -5
Don't me wrong guys.... I absolutely know the value of getting things like this off your chest, especially when you can't anywhere else. I just thought I would mention something early on, before this turned into a total COW character disussion.  Ken |
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dougc
Temple Guard
Posts: 181
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Post by dougc on Sept 6, 2008 16:29:03 GMT -5
Exactly.. and I agree.
Hey KT, again about the zipper is there some reason for it being referred to as a european zip, or is it just the manner that it was installed (pull on left hand side)... perhaps you could ask Peter next time you talk to him? It's intersting that even the buckle has markings indicating a european connection. Also, seems alot of people are assuming that Wested will only be making 60-100 of the reproduction because those are the numbers he through out regarding hardware so far, but I'm sure once original brand hardware is gone the jackets will still be offered. They should be, after all the news that original hardware was sourced to any degree is just iceing on the cake... it's mainly the pattern everyone has been focused on all along. Tell Peter and any one else involved in sourcing those items how much we appreciate all the effort, if you don't mind.
Doug C
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Post by docjones on Sept 6, 2008 16:40:39 GMT -5
Yep. And also their little USW tod jacket project that they claim have nothing to do with. It seems the USW TOD project was first initiated by a newish member who approached Sgt. Hack about it. I've seen nothing to suggest it's any kind of a COW project at all. In fact many people there seemed to shoot down the idea and favored the Wested TOD much more. I think a thread about the USW jacket was even locked. If you can give evidence that there's more to the USW project than meets the eye, I'd like to hear it because it seems to me that there are several people working quite hard (and quite quietly) to help bring us a new USW jacket at an excellent price. From what I remember reading, didn't USW drop the project once Wested got ahold of the NH jacket? But yes Dougc, I was not very impressed with Patterson's comments, and felt the questions asked were legitimate. He did have an arrogance that was not pleasant, and I felt that if he did alot of work in the past with some companies, great - but that didn't give him license to cut into people who simply wanted clarification of historical events. One thing that caught my eye there was that he said he was 44 years old now, but 20+ years ago had been part of the jacket development process for the original 3 films, which would mean, if I read it correctly and I could be wrong, that he was in his early 20s back then. Did anyone else catch this? |
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Post by Ragingblues on Sept 6, 2008 17:06:27 GMT -5
Wow... the stories have been more and more far fetched lately, haven't they?
Ken
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2008 18:11:13 GMT -5
Since Raiders is over 27 years old now that would mean he was about 17 years old. ;D
Cheers,
John
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crismans
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Mayor of Strunk
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Post by crismans on Sept 6, 2008 19:40:31 GMT -5
whoa so the USW TOD jacket project has been dropped ??  I did not read that yet ! No, it's not dropped. We have the spec sheet ready and are just waiting for buckles. Then everything's off to Wings. |
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