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Post by IndyBlues on Mar 31, 2007 21:56:03 GMT -5
John, that is one cool picture,....should be your avatar!
Mike
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Post by Kt. Templar on Apr 1, 2007 2:46:13 GMT -5
I came to the hobby after the so called "Jacket wars", can someone enlighten us and also what happened to those who left after that wave? Not sure what your question is exactly, KT...Do you want to be enlightened as to what the "jacket wars" were? And you want to know what became of the people who left (the hobby?) after that whole incident? Is that your question?  -GCR Yes please. What were the main issues and what happened to the people who left indyfan/cow. ie. is there another site out there that never gets mentioned? |
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agent5
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Post by agent5 on Apr 1, 2007 9:40:44 GMT -5
It's too complicated and too long to write out here. I'll have to tell you what I know sometime on 'chat'. I came in shortly after but I heard the story many times from different people.
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Post by GCR on Apr 1, 2007 9:55:09 GMT -5
Not sure what your question is exactly, KT...Do you want to be enlightened as to what the "jacket wars" were? And you want to know what became of the people who left (the hobby?) after that whole incident? Is that your question? -GCR Yes please. What were the main issues and what happened to the people who left indyfan/cow. ie. is there another site out there that never gets mentioned? OK, I get ya. The Jacket Wars, in a nutshell, were essentially a very heated debate / flame war that erupted between those people who were working on the FS jacket (and their friends / supporters) and those who thought that the creation of the FS was an affront to Wested and the whole hobby in general. There was a lot of name calling and childishness from both sides (from what I recall) and the whole situation really spiraled out of control. If the Indyfan Forum (where this all took place, this first occurred BEFORE COW even existed) vault is ever functioning, have a look through those archives, KT. Most of what transpired is still there for people to read. Of course, the last few times I tried to access the vault, I couldn't get in, so it's possible the server might be down over there. As for the group of people who "left", well, a large group left and went over to another site called Club Obi Wan. I'm not aware of any other sites / forums where others might have gone. But my memory has a gap here, as I left the Indyfan Forum during the whole jacket affair, and didn't turn up at COW (as a member) until 2004 (I lurked for a LONG time prior to that, though. I just had no desire to contribute until '04). There may be a couple other "old timers" (hobby-wise) out there who could fill you in a bit better than I have, but that's the gist of it anyway. The Jacket Wars maybe be officially over, but the hostility is just as strong today as it was back in 1999 / 2000. -GCR |
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agent5
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Post by agent5 on Apr 1, 2007 11:20:20 GMT -5
From what I understand, alot of the fighting took place due to the fact that those working on the G&B jacket never told anyone that the jacket was a stunt jacket worn by Terry Leonard and were only told this after so many people had bought them. I think several people felt they had been duped as they had been made to believe it was actually taken from a hero jacket.
I think there were things that were kind of hidden or brushed under the rug, so to speak, and when other members found that secrets were being kept they got mad about it and accusations started to fly.
All in all I don't think it was so much what was going on as it was the tone in which it was all carried out by certain people. It seems that tone is still alive and well today and still causing unnecessary and unwanted trouble.
Keep in mind this is all secondhand. I wasn't there for it myself nor have I read the vaults. I'm just posting from memory and perhaps someone can verify it or correct it.
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Post by GCR on Apr 1, 2007 13:28:12 GMT -5
From what I understand, alot of the fighting took place due to the fact that those working on the G&B jacket never told anyone that the jacket was a stunt jacket worn by Terry Leonard and were only told this after so many people had bought them. I think several people felt they had been duped as they had been made to believe it was actually taken from a hero jacket. I think there were things that were kind of hidden or brushed under the rug, so to speak, and when other members found that secrets were being kept they got mad about it and accusations started to fly. All in all I don't think it was so much what was going on as it was the tone in which it was all carried out by certain people. It seems that tone is still alive and well today and still causing unnecessary and unwanted trouble. Keep in mind this is all secondhand. I wasn't there for it myself nor have I read the vaults. I'm just posting from memory and perhaps someone can verify it or correct it. That was more than likely a part of it, but the conflict seemed to arise from so many different things. Some people didn't like the idea of a new jacket from the get go. They figured they had Wested, the "original maker" (more or less, though we know it was Leather Concessionaires or whatever at the time, but still Peter) making jackets, why try and introduce something else? What was the need for that? Of course, Peter himself, who was posting at Indyfan back then, didn't like the idea one bit. Peter's overall attitude didn't help the situation, and indeed probably contributed to the rift, but at the same time, can you blame him? Some folks didn't like the fact that Wested was selling a product and calling it "hand cut from the original patterns" when it was clearly different than the jacket worn by Ford in Raiders. Other folks didn't like the fact that their Wested's were now being regarded as "inferior" since they lacked the "screen-accuracy" of the newer FS. These people didn't understand how the FS could be more "accurate" than a jacket made by the man who made the original. And on and on it went. A major smear campaign began with BOTH sides throwing a LOT of mud. The FS camp claimed that the Indy Jacket sold by Peter was in fact NOT Peter's original pattern, but a copy of an FS made jacket that had originally been designed by (and for) Lee Keppler. Essentially calling Peter a liar and the COA he included with his jackets as "false", and that Peter used these "lies" to sell his jackets. There was also a claim that when Patterson supposedly got access to the "Stunt Jacket" and took the specs from it, that he approached Wested with the info, to see if Peter wanted to improve his current design. The claim made was that Peter refused. (I can't recall the reason why, or if Peter ever even acknowledged that this actually happened) The Peter / Wested camp claimed that the FS camp was only making some wild claim in order to make their own new jacket product more appealing. While it is easy to jump on Peter, one must recognize the fact that those involved in the creation of the FS might well have had interests of their own, beyond just giving the "fans" another jacket option. This is all speculation, of course, but to rule out the idea that some people are motivated by the small amount of "fame" or "recognition" they receive from the gear community when they are involved in projects like this would be foolish. Writing yourself into the "Gear Legend" might hold a thrill for some. Not saying that's the case here, but unless you really know the people involved on a personal level, how can anyone discount that as a possibility. Plus, if we're speculating anyway, let us also state that while there is no reason to believe any party involved in the creation of the FS had a financial interest in the project, and would stand to gain if the project succeeded, it would also be unwise to discount that possibility, for the sake of pure objectivity. I only bring these issues up because it seemed to be easy enough for many in the FS camp to sling mud at Peter, as Peter was the salesman, making money from his jacket "lies", and they were merely fans. That seemed to be their way to validate their claims as "the truth" and Peter's claims as "lies", since Peter had a financial interest (and his repuation) tied in with the jackets, and the FS supporters / creators apparently did not. Again, I don't consider myself in EITHER camp. Frankly I think the issue should have been left buried after it all blew over years ago. Both Wested and FS make fine jackets. I can see fair arguments from both sides, although I can see a LOT of potential BS as well. Let's face it, we WILL NEVER KNOW the whole jacket story, and at this point, what difference does that make? -GCR |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Apr 1, 2007 13:58:33 GMT -5
Boy, history almost repeated itself and unwittingly I was almost the starter.
Todd sorry for that, I can see all the same arguements had alread been covered before, and in the end it seems there is enough room for a few more vendors. It ain't as easy as it looks to make an Indy jacket and a lot of work has to go in from every party to make it work.
Again it's all a storm in a teacup. But shows how excitable we can become over these things.
CGR, Agent 5, thank you for taking time to relate that info, everything has become clear.
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Post by Kt. Templar on Apr 18, 2007 16:46:09 GMT -5
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Post by aeriscanon on Apr 18, 2007 17:20:56 GMT -5
Well, if they do get it I hope they fix their pattern. They are currently the least among the vendors in terms of accurate looking Indy jackets. They can win the contract and make thousands of them - incorrectly again - and sell them to the masses. That's corporate / mass consumption / number crunching / profit stuff. None of which means much if they cheat the pattern the way they do now. I know where the accurate jackets are.  |
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Post by IndyBlues on Apr 18, 2007 17:31:58 GMT -5
I look at it this way,...I'd rather have my relatively unknown Wested or G&B on my back, while the sheep are all wearing their "Officially Licensed" jackets.....and hats.
'Blues
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Post by pitfallharry on Apr 18, 2007 17:58:44 GMT -5
Oh, please tell me this is a joke. Out of all the vendors out there making more accurate jackets they may go with US Wings?!?!!?
Gee, I can't wait to order my Shia Lebouf Indy Jr. jacket with the patches on the sleeve that say this is an official "Bastard Son of Indy Jacket".
If you'll excuse me I'm going to go jump out of one Lao Che's planes without a life raft!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2007 18:35:44 GMT -5
Does this mean that the ones in the Film will be US Wings also?
Cheers,
G-MANN
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Post by pitfallharry on Apr 18, 2007 18:44:31 GMT -5
Does this mean that the ones in the Film will be US Wings also? Cheers, G-MANN Yeah, from the way it reads I think they are. This means that Indy would not only be wearing a US Wings but they'd be the official source for Indy 4 jackets for the fans. So if you want a S.A Indy 4 jacket go buy a US Wings. |
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Post by IndyBlues on Apr 18, 2007 19:05:00 GMT -5
I have a feeling this is just for the licensing for selling replica film jackets. They don't want to put the "Official" logo on anything that would be too expensive, AND they are going to need mass produced jackets. Wested and G&B,... and Todd won't be able to keep up with the kind of sales they may be looking at. Seriously, the average 'fan" isn't going to care about complete screen accuracy,...only crazy people,.....like us! ;D 'Blues  |
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Post by pitfallharry on Apr 18, 2007 19:20:19 GMT -5
Well, that's what I thought at first but it says "U.S.Wings is also in negotiations with Lucasfilms to supply them with all the jackets needed for the upcoming film."[/u]
So that makes it sound like Indy or whoever these jackets are for will be wearing them onscreen.
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Post by Ragingblues on Apr 18, 2007 19:45:44 GMT -5
It won't matter to me which manufacturer they use for the screen used gear or the merchandising. I will only buy gear that looks the most like Raiders stuff for the most part anyway.
Oddly enough... if you google Indy 4 jacket, Indy Lounge is the first search result that comes up. That may change, of course. But, if people do search specifically for the Indy 4 jacket, they will wind up finding other options as well.
The Lounge has been showing up under many Indy related search terms on Google for while now, as a matter of fact. That, the new gear site, the additional cross linking that will follow, and more search engine submissions, will keep us in the public eye as Indy 4 nears or even afterward.
Ken
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Post by GCR on Apr 18, 2007 22:40:50 GMT -5
I don't quite know how to take this news...but I think I'm gonna have to agree with IB. This could indeed just be another promotional stunt akin to the Stetson - Temple of Doom fedora promotional campaign. The campaign made bold claims that the hats worn by Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom were Stetson hats, and according to gear lore, a couple of those Stetsons turned up in the film itself. Of course, we know HJ supplied hats for all three films and it seems to me that a good portion of the hats used in ToD were indeed the HJ's (you can spot certain characteristics in the ToD hats that are shared with the later LC hats and even post-Indy era HJ's up through today in certain cases). The Stetson's appearance in the film (if there even was one) was, more than likely, very brief. Having HJ supply the bulk of the costume hats and then sneaking a Stetson hat in for a shot or two just so they can say "Indy wore a Stetson in this movie!" is probably what went down. So while Stetson MAY have actually made a hat or two for the film, they were primarily concerned with the mass-production of the officially licensed fedoras that were part of the massive ToD marketing campaign. Something similar might be in the works with Wings, since they did produce the "official" jackets years ago as well...but an actual Wings jacket turning up on Ford in Indy 4? Not so sure, there...
-GCR
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Post by pitfallharry on Apr 18, 2007 22:59:41 GMT -5
Well, by going back and viewing LC you can kind of get an idea of where they were headed when it came to Indy's gear so I don't see them doubling back and trying to recapture the "look" of his gear from Raiders. I think it's a good possibility they'll go further "off course" with his gear from our point of view with this new film.
Yeah, I can see Indy wearing a US Wings in this film....if not him then his kid.
Don't get me wrong I don't think the US Wings are bad jackets and it has nothing to do with the quality. Any of the ones I've seen though have that bulky look of the LC jacket and they don't drape like the one from Raiders.
It pains me to think of how bad his hat and jacket might look in this new film. I really don't think they really give much thought to the hat and jacket. The proof of that is right up on the screen with the two sequels.
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