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Post by indyfan4ever on Aug 23, 2009 1:11:40 GMT -5
Hey guys...I did a few searches, and I couldn't find too much...please don't kill me if this topic has been discussed...I'm new  I liked the overall look of the KOTCS outfit. It looked very good on Ford, but, was it me or did the whole outfit look very baggy... Let me explain myself...you watch Raider's or Doom, and you see that the outfit is very snug and rugged/dirty...in Crystal Skull, the outfit seemed very baggy, cleaned, and pressed (except for the opening scene) My biggest beef with the outfit would probably be the jacket. Sure, it's a beautiful jacket, don't get me wrong...but it seems over sized, too thick, and too light in color. Like in this still below, in the scene when Indy and the gang are in the treasure room and Oxley is holding the Skull...the jacket almost seems light brown...I was wondering why the costume designer chose to use Cowhide instead of the traditional Indy dark Lambskin? www.theraider.net/films/indy4/dvd_gallery_05.php#www.theraider.net/films/indy4/dvd_gallery_02.phpLike in the still above, when Indy tells Mac, "I'm gunna break your nose", the coat looks to stiff and thick. It also ruins the fedora too. The fedora now looks darker in contrast to the coat, making Indy look, well...un-Indy. I may be nitpicking too much, this is just something that I have noticed, and I was wondering if any of you guys had any comments or answers on this subject. I just hope that in Indy V, the costume manager will change these little things, or atleast suggest a darker tone for the hide. Marc, I know Adventurebilt did the fedoras for Indy IV, and you and Steve did a wonderful job constructing a beautiful hat, but I was wondering how much contact did you have with the costume designer, if any...maybe you could give him this little tip on the coat, lol! Well thanks for letting me vent, now it's off to bed for me! -IndyFan4Ever |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 23, 2009 5:07:43 GMT -5
They started on the wrong foot really. The jacket they copied from the archives was not one of the original movie jackets. It was an old Last Crusade prototype, made in a light coloured (kinda caramel coloured) predistressed cowhide, the kind of leather that marks as soon as you touch it.
Reported to be a jacket made by Gibson and Barnes from specs by Lee Keppler.
And yes the rest of the gear was way to fussed, it looked like Indy was cleaned and pressed between takes. The hat especially looked like they got a new one out of the wrapper with every camera cut!
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Post by angrynj on Aug 23, 2009 9:08:26 GMT -5
KOTCS was cowhide made by Tony Nowak. So it is much thicker looking than lambskin. I really don't mind. I figure Indy went thru many jackets over his lifetime. He doesnt have to have the exact same one every time. Plus he is older and doesnt have the same body he used to. Granted he looks FANTASTIC for his age. He is probably in better shape than me and I am 37. I see indy having a different jacket in each movie as a good thing. Its like 007 always having a different girl in each movie.  Plus it keeps us all busy debating and cataloguing details. LOL www.kennydrew.com/Indylounge/indyjacket.htmThe jackets for "Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of The Crystal Skull" were a "Last Crusade" based design, constructed by Tony Nowak of California. Along with being a lighter shade of brown, they also have a stone washed sort of distressing to them instead of the less uniform techniques done by hand. Cowhide was used instead of lambskin, and the look of the jackets changed greatly because of it. The shoulder seams (and possibly others) were also double stitched this time for extra strength. This link has alot about the history of the jacket(s) from Raiders and TOD. Raider Jacket www.indygear.com/igjacket-RotLA.html |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 23, 2009 9:52:46 GMT -5
The design came from the prototype, all the features you describe were from that. Including the double stitch. Note: the prototype Wested made based off the archive jacket already has most of the features we associate with the CS. Best not attribute anything to anyone that they did not originate. This jacket was made within a week or two of Wested's last submission to Pollack, it is a duplicate of that submission, barring the leather which was still in flux. It is a very heavy vegetable tanned lamb.   |
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Post by Sapito on Aug 23, 2009 14:37:00 GMT -5
Some things have been left out. Mr. Nowak was working on KotCS making the Mutt jackets and didn't know much about Indiana Jones. He was given a job to make the biker style jacket and completed the job.
Apparently there was trouble between Mr. Boutwright and Designer Pollack and tensions went to the top where apparently and high up people got involved. On quick notice Mr. Nowak was asked to try to make Indiana's jacket and brought an original jacket from the archive to work from and was able to do his version and corrections in just a few hours. His jacket was given thumbs up and he made however many needed from cowhide. Time was short by then.
There is a story people were out to get Botwright or his work was stolen. There is a sour grapes element to this. Maybe there was a conflict over money or maybe it was over selling jackets on the fan market due to trademarks or maybe it was about quality or a preferance of construction and appearance or maybe it was personal between a group of people.
Where is proof the archive jacket was not from LC? Do people think Mr. Nowak stole the job? Maybe that happened but who made the claim and where is proof?
No I do not care for the overall look of IndY J in KotCS and dont like the movie so maybe that is why. The jacket is good and looks like it is not a costume because it is heavy and that makes it look different. The shirt looks like the shirt he always wears and so do the pants and his bag. Indiana looks old because Harrison is old and that is not bad but just fact. he looks great but people change and he is not 30 or 40 but now closer to 70!
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Post by Ragingblues on Aug 23, 2009 16:05:40 GMT -5
Some things have been left out. Mr. Nowak was working on KotCS making the Mutt jackets and didn't know much about Indiana Jones. He was given a job to make the biker style jacket and completed the job. Apparently there was trouble between Mr. Boutwright and Designer Pollack and tensions went to the top where apparently and high up people got involved. On quick notice Mr. Nowak was asked to try to make Indiana's jacket and brought an original jacket from the archive to work from and was able to do his version and corrections in just a few hours. His jacket was given thumbs up and he made however many needed from cowhide. Time was short by then. There is a story people were out to get Botwright or his work was stolen. There is a sour grapes element to this. Maybe there was a conflict over money or maybe it was over selling jackets on the fan market due to trademarks or maybe it was about quality or a preferance of construction and appearance or maybe it was personal between a group of people. Where is proof the archive jacket was not from LC? Do people think Mr. Nowak stole the job? Maybe that happened but who made the claim and where is proof? No I do not care for the overall look of IndY J in KotCS and dont like the movie so maybe that is why. The jacket is good and looks like it is not a costume because it is heavy and that makes it look different. The shirt looks like the shirt he always wears and so do the pants and his bag. Indiana looks old because Harrison is old and that is not bad but just fact. he looks great but people change and he is not 30 or 40 but now closer to 70! You happen to be disputing facts concerning Peter's involvement with probably the one person outside of Peter that has all the details regarding the situation. Ken |
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Post by Sapito on Aug 23, 2009 16:56:42 GMT -5
Does Wested have all the details? Do you think he would admit to problems he may had with the production?
What about speaking to either Mr. Pollack or Mr. Nowack? Surely they have details as well.
Look at what is in people's best interests or egos. Maybe some like more credit than they deserve and some paint others in a bad light. It goes in all directions and in the end is about trying to sell and make money.
There are versions of the story floating where Mr. boghtwright has some a fit and was given the boot. That may be an attempt to make him look like a fool but so are stories that say Mr. Nowak stole the job and ripped off somebodys work.
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Post by inbanana on Aug 23, 2009 16:59:17 GMT -5
Some things have been left out. Mr. Nowak was working on KotCS making the Mutt jackets and didn't know much about Indiana Jones. He was given a job to make the biker style jacket and completed the job. Apparently there was trouble between Mr. Boutwright and Designer Pollack and tensions went to the top where apparently and high up people got involved. On quick notice Mr. Nowak was asked to try to make Indiana's jacket and brought an original jacket from the archive to work from and was able to do his version and corrections in just a few hours. His jacket was given thumbs up and he made however many needed from cowhide. Time was short by then. There is a story people were out to get Botwright or his work was stolen. There is a sour grapes element to this. Maybe there was a conflict over money or maybe it was over selling jackets on the fan market due to trademarks or maybe it was about quality or a preferance of construction and appearance or maybe it was personal between a group of people. Where is proof the archive jacket was not from LC? Do people think Mr. Nowak stole the job? Maybe that happened but who made the claim and where is proof? No I do not care for the overall look of IndY J in KotCS and dont like the movie so maybe that is why. The jacket is good and looks like it is not a costume because it is heavy and that makes it look different. The shirt looks like the shirt he always wears and so do the pants and his bag. Indiana looks old because Harrison is old and that is not bad but just fact. he looks great but people change and he is not 30 or 40 but now closer to 70! So let me see if I'm following correctly... what your saying is that Pollack gave Nowak an original LC jacket to work from while Botwright was given something else... the fan made jacket (and wasn't it only photos?) designed by Keppler? We've seen photos of the archive jacket , well at least photos of the archive jacket that Botwright was told to copy (sorry, I didn't save them, maybe someone else around might have them though), and hasn't that jacket been identified several times as the Gibson & Barnes/Keppler jacket? |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 23, 2009 17:17:54 GMT -5
Both Peter and Nowak worked from the same Keppler G&B jacket. Nowak had the advantage of being able to take the jacket away to his studio, whereas Peter had to work form photos and measurements back in the UK.
The 'Keppler' prototype source jacket is easily distinguished from any screen LC. It has leather facings inside the zipper and it has double stitched armholes. None of the screen LC jackets do.
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Post by Sapito on Aug 23, 2009 19:14:35 GMT -5
Banana I never said anything about what Wested copied only that Nowak had acess to archive jacket on short notice and had to come up with a submitted jacket in either an evening or overnight. How long he had to look at the archive jacket is not something I could guess though probably enough to make measures and whatever a tailor needs to work. Logical would seem a jacket worth many thousands of dollars and historic interest would not be left unattended or without a bodyguard!
One thing confusing about what KT says above is only having photos and measurements in the UK. If the original jacket was made by Mr. Botwright, he would already know what the jacket should be as that is who people say made the original and they claim to make thier fan copies from the original patterns? It is hard to understand why any original would metter to anyonye other than people who has never worked with it and Wested has said its made these since the first movie!
Where is it said without doubt a G&B jacket was used? That is new information and where it from?
People are speaking as if there was a contest to make the Harrison jacket and it does not seem to be the case. Mr. Nowak was already doing the Mutt biker and for whatever reason there was a problem with the main Indy jacket because of how it was built the costumer didnt like it or a clash of personality or all of the above. At that point because of schedules they went to someone already doing work the film and if you read what Mr. Pollack has said and written they were thrilled about the jacket they got.
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 23, 2009 19:27:37 GMT -5
Sapito you seem to be a little confused.
1) Nowak is known to have have the Keppler proto overnight, with a 'chaperone', apparently.
2) The Keppler and thus the CS is significantly different to a regular Indy jacket. And actually the main differences between the eventual CS jacket and the Wested prototype are very minor. ie. removal of the bottom hem stitch on the jacket, removal of the finishing stitch on the rear seam of the sleeves, black liner instead of brown. (None of which were exactly dealbreakers!).
3) The 'winners' always re-write history!
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crismans
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Post by crismans on Aug 23, 2009 20:48:17 GMT -5
From what I understand (and this is from speaking with Tony and this wasn't said in confidence), he had completed the Mutt jacket. He was speaking with Pollack and Pollack indicated that he was upset as he'd tried several makers and couldn't get an Indy jacket that he liked. Tony looked at the jacket and said he could make it. The jacket and a chaperone went back with Tony to his shop and by midnight that night (if my memory serves) the jacket was finished.
So, going by that story, there wasn't any theft. Whether you like the jacket or not, Pollack was looking for a particular jacket and Tony was the one who delivered
As for what jacket Tony had to copy, I have heard that it was the Keppler prototype (which I have heard was also the basis for the LC jacket) or several other jackets (the Smithsonian jacket has been mentioned as well). I have no idea which one it was, of course.
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Post by Sapito on Aug 23, 2009 21:48:09 GMT -5
Nothing was stolen. The jacket your man delivered was not what the designer needed and there was animosity of some type as well. Nowak was given a chance after his Mutt jacket was well recieved and they were still without the Indy's jacket with time running out.
Nowak was given a jacket to work from because they needed an Indy jacket. Of course he had to have something to model his jacket after. Nowak is in California so it was easy to get a jacket to him. He made a jacket and Pollack accepted it. I do not believe these men knew each other before the film from watching the DVD special features and the making of book.
Maybe winners do write history, at least that was the way it once was, but it seems like saying Nowak copied what Wested had already submitted for KotCS is spinning history too. I don't see any of this as winner and loser. There was competition for a creative assignment and one product was chosen over another. That is life and business. If there were people out to harm anyone they would not have let them compete to begin with as there was no law saying they needed to use any certain hats, bags, shirts or jackets. The people in charge made the decisions and if you think about it both Nowak and Botwright benefitted. Both have sold many jackets because of the new movie.
I hope to own one so that is my choice now!
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 24, 2009 3:17:13 GMT -5
I'm not saying anything. Nowak did what he does best and copied the archive jacket very well, his flair with the 800 grit must have been one of the deciding factors too.
Pollack has a track record of selective memory, take for instance his continual 'forgetting' about Marc when talking about who made his hat, he also 'forgets' to mention that it was Peter who told him about Marc.
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Post by Ragingblues on Aug 24, 2009 7:24:24 GMT -5
I'm not saying anything. Nowak did what he does best and copied the archive jacket very well, his flair with the 800 grit must have been one of the deciding factors too. Pollack has a track record of selective memory, take for instance his continual 'forgetting' about Marc when talking about who made his hat, he also 'forgets' to mention that it was Peter who told him about Marc. How right you are KT..... it's strange to see the story being retold with key people completely left out of it. Of course, depending on where you are reading the re-imagined version, entirely new people pop into the mix and the whole thing becomes a big fish tale. Of course, that seems to be the way of things in this particular interest. If you weren't part of something that happened but really wanted to be, just write yourself in and call it fact. Ken |
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Post by Sapito on Aug 24, 2009 9:55:42 GMT -5
KT you are sore over a job now a couple years ago and now part of Indiana Jones official history. Mr. Nowak made made the jackets and if there were another movie who knows he might make them again or even someone out there to be discovered.
Do you think it impossible one jacket was built better than another? Maybe one looked better? Maybe Spielberg or Lucas liked one better? Lucas on Star Wars has to approve the smallest detail! More people than Mr. Pollack was looking at the costume before Harrison first showed up for shooting!
Is it fair to accuse one jacket maker of being a copier when it was announced on the lounge Wested making its own copy of the RotLA based on a Novak jacket? They will even copy a special leather shrunk lambskin? All jacket making is copying! Every Indy jacket has to look nearly the same so of course it is a copy! Geeesh.
Plus the KotCS does look unique and is a departure from what came before! The first poster even said that.
We are talking about the jacket and not the hat so why throw that in when it is a simple thing? For whatever reason one makers jacket was chosen over a few others. The reasons it seems are either quality, looks or people fighting or a combination. Maybe someone wanted more money. It is business!
In all of this you have made remarks about Nowak and have made strong words in the past too but not once have you given a fact why Wested was cut out and Nowak favored. You want to blame the costume man Pollack but do you have proof it was personal?
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Post by Ragingblues on Aug 24, 2009 10:28:24 GMT -5
KT you are sore over a job now a couple years ago and now part of Indiana Jones official history. Mr. Nowak made made the jackets and if there were another movie who knows he might make them again or even someone out there to be discovered. Do you think it impossible one jacket was built better than another? Maybe one looked better? Maybe Spielberg or Lucas liked one better? Lucas on Star Wars has to approve the smallest detail! More people than Mr. Pollack was looking at the costume before Harrison first showed up for shooting! Is it fair to accuse one jacket maker of being a copier when it was announced on the lounge Wested making its own copy of the RotLA based on a Novak jacket? They will even copy a special leather shrunk lambskin? All jacket making is copying! Every Indy jacket has to look nearly the same so of course it is a copy! Geeesh. Plus the KotCS does look unique and is a departure from what came before! The first poster even said that. We are talking about the jacket and not the hat so why throw that in when it is a simple thing? For whatever reason one makers jacket was chosen over a few others. The reasons it seems are either quality, looks or people fighting or a combination. Maybe someone placeted more money. It is business! In all of this you have made remarks about Nowak and have made strong words in the past too but not once have you given a fact why Wested was cut out and Nowak favored. You placet to blame the costume man Pollack but do you have proof it was personal? The irony here is that with your remarks toward KT, you have turned this into a personal issue. Let's be sure to continue this discussion in a civil manner, before things get too strongly worded for comfort. If someone wants to bring up the misinformation conerning the KOTCS hats, it's certainly fine to do so here. It's all Indy stuff used in the same movie, and involving the same costumer.... and is fair game. Ken |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 24, 2009 14:53:30 GMT -5
Do you think it impossible one jacket was built better than another? Maybe one looked better? Maybe Spielberg or Lucas liked one better? Lucas on Star Wars has to approve the smallest detail! More people than Mr. Pollack was looking at the costume before Harrison first showed up for shooting! Is it fair to accuse one jacket maker of being a copier when it was announced on the lounge Wested making its own copy of the RotLA based on a Novak jacket? They will even copy a special leather shrunk lambskin? All jacket making is copying! Every Indy jacket has to look nearly the same so of course it is a copy! Geeesh. Plus the KotCS does look unique and is a departure from what came before! The first poster even said that. We are talking about the jacket and not the hat so why throw that in when it is a simple thing? For whatever reason one makers jacket was chosen over a few others. The reasons it seems are either quality, looks or people fighting or a combination. Maybe someone wanted more money. It is business! In all of this you have made remarks about Nowak and have made strong words in the past too but not once have you given a fact why Wested was cut out and Nowak favored. You want to blame the costume man Pollack but do you have proof it was personal? Having seen the rock solid construction of the prototype I posted further up the thread I have to conclude that something political happened. That jacket is literally beautiful. I know that on at least one occasion Pollack phoned Peter at 10 o clock at night (perhaps later) and was he told to please call back within office hours. And yes there are office hours that overlap from London to Californian time. Perhaps it was the fact that when Pollack said "JUMP!" Peter didn't say "How High?" ;D The situation where arguments moved up the chain didn't happen 'till later and seem to be the catalyst for the 'insider' information that Nowak appears to have had for his other copy of Leather Concessionaires' work. It's definitely not money. Nowak charged 2-3 times (conservative estimate) what Peter did for his prototypes. |
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crismans
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Post by crismans on Aug 24, 2009 15:32:34 GMT -5
As far as stories go, I've heard the one I related from several different sources. I wasn't there so I can't comment on its validity, but I have heard the same story from different people.
But what I have noticed is that there are a few people who like to take backhanded jabs and do enough of a spin job to make someone dizzy. It's not about getting to the truth, it's about clouding it for a particular agenda.
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Post by angrynj on Aug 24, 2009 19:08:02 GMT -5
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garzo
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Post by garzo on Aug 25, 2009 20:04:04 GMT -5
The design came from the prototype, all the features you describe were from that. Including the double stitch. Note: the prototype Wested made based off the archive jacket already has most of the features we associate with the CS. Best not attribute anything to anyone that they did not originate. This jacket was made within a week or two of Wested's last submission to Pollack, it is a duplicate of that submission, barring the leather which was still in flux. It is a very heavy vegetable tanned lamb. To quote Belloq's last words, "It's beautiful!" Why doesn't Wested offer this heavy vegetable tanned lamb? It would be a big hit, no? |
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Post by Kt. Templar on Aug 26, 2009 2:27:49 GMT -5
I think it is just too light a colour to work really. The veg tanning seem to be like the natural tan on a whip, ie not a lot of dark colour. But it is beautiful for sure.
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Post by inbanana on Sept 2, 2009 4:52:00 GMT -5
Lets say hypothetically that Wested got the contract and the leather was finalized, etc... who then would have done the aging/distressing? Would it have been done at Western Costume this time around?
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Post by Kt. Templar on Sept 2, 2009 14:21:19 GMT -5
Lets say hypothetically that Wested got the contract and the leather was finalized, etc... who then would have done the aging/distressing? Would it have been done at Western Costume this time around? In a word, yes! Wested doesn't normally do the distressing, the costumer normally wants to do that. Their jackets are supplied new. Peter tells a story of spending ages in supplying perfectly fitting jackets for Das Boot only to have them soak them in the sea for a week then dry them in the sun. Needless to say they no longer fitted! So everyone moved one size up and they had to make a whole size bigger for the bigger guys! |
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Post by inbanana on Sept 4, 2009 4:07:59 GMT -5
Okay, thanks... yeah, thats what I figured since, like you said, Wested usually isn't in the business of distressing jackets. So... that has me wondering, and sorry for getting too far off topic here, but since I'm not sure if Western Costume deals with the general public or not on something like this (and if they did, I have a funny feeling that it wouldn't exactly be cheap)... how about the idea of Wested subcontracting someone out to who can professionally distress the jackets that fans buy from them... I don't know, kind of like an option that people could check off when ordering a jacket, that would in turn, put them in contact with whoever was doing the distressing to go over different options. For someone like me who doesn't like to do their own distressing (well maybe, but only if I had a lot of practice first...), I'd be interested in something like that, if the price was reasonable that is... Since I guess that B&N doesn't exist anymore... who would be the equivalent to Western Costume in the U.K.? Are there more inexpensive options? Anyway... maybe its been talked about before... and maybe it just isn't doable... just though it might be an interesting idea.
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